Friday Facts #427 - Combat Balancing & Space Age LAN

[mmmPI]

That doesn't make my own preferred gameplay any less valid than other game play styles.

No it's just when you said you know people who can't click fast and use PLD for combat as if it was a valid complaint , that was ridiculous.

The nerf is a good thing, it will allow you to stop using the lazy PLD and try the new weapons imo.

[XT-248]

That doesn't make my own preferred gameplay any less valid than other game play styles.

No it's just when you said you know people who can't click fast and use PLD for combat as if it was a valid complaint , that was ridiculous.

The nerf is a good thing, it will allow you to stop using the lazy PLD and try the new weapons imo.

That is not what I said...

I said this is an example of someone who I know who doesn't use PLDs because they can't move the spidertron fast enough to get in close. So, they avoided bringing Spidertron in close and instead used rockets.

Nothing about that resembles a complaint.


I have already tried the 'new' weapons. I assume that by 'new' weapons, someone meant cannons, magazines, shotgun ammo, flammable bazooka/rocket, artillery rounds, and capsules.

I don't have fun using them. I do with active-gameplay and PLDs in Spidertron.

[mmmPI]

I don't have fun using them. I do with active-gameplay and PLDs in Spidertron.

Tesla guns ?

[XT-248]

I don't have fun using them. I do with active-gameplay and PLDs in Spidertron.

Tesla guns ?

Hand-held weapons in a vehicle? Can you put a hand-held flamethrower on a Spidertron?

I am talking about 'new' weapons in vanilla Factorio, and Tesla Gun doesn't count.

[KuuLightwing]

No you are wrong, you just have to do the research for artillery range. 100% automatic, no need to move anything or use the remote.

Mmm, expanding your territory by some 70 tiles per exponentially increasing research.

Placing a large wall blueprint with artillery turrets is sufficient 'hand-off' in my opinion and does not contribute much to the sense of 'fun' different people might have from doing a much more 'hands-on' approach.

Also, artillery wagons exist in the game and can be moved to a forward defensive outpost with train tracks, which reduces the necessary 'construction tasks' by fewer entities within the blueprint itself, which is at most a few clicks on a macro-management level.

Moving the artillery wagons can be automated through train schedules if one is sufficiently motivated to be more 'hand-off.'

Well sufficient is subjective judgement, and it's not just placing a wall blueprint, it's also deconstructing the old wall, bringing the materials and supplying the wall and so on. Trains, wagons and so on yea I use that of course, still not 100% happy about the system as a whole. As said before, I wish there were options like remote bombardment or nuclear artillery or mirv to just reduce the tedium.

Especially in 1.1 stuff like MIRV is just... why not at this point? You already "won" the game at that point, as you need rockets fro MIRV, anything past that is essentially pure sandbox, there's no goals to pursue other than the ones players make for themselves.

[mmmPI]

I am talking about 'new' weapons in vanilla Factorio, and Tesla Gun doesn't count.

I wish there was a color like blue except not blue because blue doesn't count.

Mmm, expanding your territory by some 70 tiles per exponentially increasing research.

yes, this and blueprinting, still make more sense than PLD and spidertron if you want something automated. You have to create outpost for ressources anyway, with the artillery research high enough, you always have ressources protected by artillery, you go there for outpost, place new artillery, got new location for future expansion and so on, that's how some self expanding base function with the recursive blueprint mod, no need for manual combat or clicking fast, or using PLD, those can be nerfed safely imo without hurting the balance of the game, and it make sense to do so as new weapons were revealed.

[Tertius]

The nerf is a good thing, it will allow you to stop using the lazy PLD and try the new weapons imo.

What new weapons? I speak about portable weapons, not the new turrets, because the nerf isn't relevant for stationary weapons. I'm all in favor for damage over defense, because it's damage that kills enemies, not defense. However, I somehow missed an announcement for the BFG 9000.

[XT-248]

I am talking about 'new' weapons in vanilla Factorio, and Tesla Gun doesn't count.

I wish there was a color like blue except not blue because blue doesn't count.

What the heck does the color blue, actually any color for that matter, have to do with being able to equip Spidertron with hand-held weapons, which is not a planned feature as far I am aware of in Space Age, regardless of being 'new'?

Placing a large wall blueprint with artillery turrets is sufficient 'hand-off' in my opinion and does not contribute much to the sense of 'fun' different people might have from doing a much more 'hands-on' approach.

Also, artillery wagons exist in the game and can be moved to a forward defensive outpost with train tracks, which reduces the necessary 'construction tasks' by fewer entities within the blueprint itself, which is at most a few clicks on a macro-management level.

Moving the artillery wagons can be automated through train schedules if one is sufficiently motivated to be more 'hand-off.'

Well sufficient is subjective judgement, and it's not just placing a wall blueprint, it's also deconstructing the old wall, bringing the materials and supplying the wall and so on. Trains, wagons and so on yea I use that of course, still not 100% happy about the system as a whole. As said before, I wish there were options like remote bombardment or nuclear artillery or mirv to just reduce the tedium.

Especially in 1.1 stuff like MIRV is just... why not at this point? You already "won" the game at that point, as you need rockets fro MIRV, anything past that is essentially pure sandbox, there's no goals to pursue other than the ones players make for themselves.

It is not a matter of subjective.

Micro-management usually involves the player giving multiple orders rapidly within a minute or less.

Macro-management is taking a blueprint/deconstruction-planner and stamping it each once in a while and letting your train network and logistic bots take care of it (orders can be done more than a minute apart).


Spidertron and PLD benefit greatly from micro-management.

Artillery turrets and wagons don't realize any extra benefit from micro-management and, consequently the artillery weapons are largely a macro-management gameplay weapon system.

[mmmPI]

What new weapons? I speak about portable weapons, not the new turrets, because the nerf isn't relevant for stationary weapons. I'm all in favor for damage over defense, because it's damage that kills enemies, not defense. However, I somehow missed an announcement for the BFG 9000.

Tesla guns !

[mmmPI]

I am talking about 'new' weapons in vanilla Factorio, and Tesla Gun doesn't count.

I wish there was a color like blue except not blue because blue doesn't count.

What the heck does the color blue, actually any color for that matter, have to do with being able to equip Spidertron with hand-held weapons, which is not a planned feature as far I am aware of in Space Age, regardless of being 'new'?

[KuuLightwing]

It is not a matter of subjective.

Micro-management usually involves the player giving multiple orders rapidly within a minute or less.

Macro-management is taking a blueprint/deconstruction-planner and stamping it each once in a while and letting your train network and logistic bots take care of it (orders can be done more than a minute apart).


Spidertron and PLD benefit greatly from micro-management.

Artillery turrets and wagons don't realize any extra benefit from micro-management and, consequently the artillery weapons are largely a macro-management gameplay weapon system.

What is subjective is how much management you would consider enough of a hassle. And also I would argue that using artillery remote is micro management as well, so yes, artillery does benefit from micro management, and greatly so.

[Tertius]

Tesla guns !

It seems I forgot about the portable tesla variant. When I revisit the fff, I remember that "It may not do as much damage as some of the other weapons...", in combination with it requiring manual firing, made me not consider it as top priority for further investigation. It doesn't seem to do friendly fire as all the explosive area of effect weapons, so it's definitely a better choice, however I guess it's only available much later in the game.

You know I'm not a friend of combat, but I don't want to completely remove this game aspect. To improve my early game skills for a good start in 2.0, I started a fresh map in 1.1 a few days ago and checked how I wanted to go from there, including the "Lazy Bastard" achievement, to make me create malls right from the start with absolutely no manual crafting. I tripled the size of the starting area and made sure it is in the forest, so I don't have to deal with enemies any time soon with just the most simple weapons available, and I guess that's how I will start in 2.0 as well - that felt good.

[XT-248]

I am talking about 'new' weapons in vanilla Factorio, and Tesla Gun doesn't count.

I wish there was a color like blue except not blue because blue doesn't count.

What the heck does the color blue, actually any color for that matter, have to do with being able to equip Spidertron with hand-held weapons, which is not a planned feature as far I am aware of in Space Age, regardless of being 'new'?

Spidertron, in vanilla 1.1.x Factorio, only can use rocket ammunition and personal laser defense modules to deal damage. Why is that funny?

Do you know something that we don't? About Oct 21, 2024?

[XT-248]

It is not a matter of subjective.

Micro-management usually involves the player giving multiple orders rapidly within a minute or less.

Macro-management is taking a blueprint/deconstruction-planner and stamping it each once in a while and letting your train network and logistic bots take care of it (orders can be done more than a minute apart).


Spidertron and PLD benefit greatly from micro-management.

Artillery turrets and wagons don't realize any extra benefit from micro-management and, consequently the artillery weapons are largely a macro-management gameplay weapon system.

What is subjective is how much management you would consider enough of a hassle. And also I would argue that using artillery remote is micro management as well, so yes, artillery does benefit from micro management, and greatly so.

Right.

I am talking about using spidertron with only personal laser defense modules and using 'micro-management' in order to ensure that they survive longer in combat. If I tried to do the same without 'micro-management,' the spidertrons would no longer be combat-effective once ruined.

There is no extra benefit in using artillery remote control in a manner that one would consider 'micro-management' when a few clicks on a macro-management level can move the artillery turrets/wagons forward. Artillery Shell Range increases the auto-targeting and manual targeting range by 30% equally.


In one case, 'micro-management' is not a choice but the whole point. In the other case, 'micro-management' is optional and not required.

[mmmPI]

Spidertron, in vanilla 1.1.x Factorio, only can use rocket ammunition and personal laser defense modules to deal damage. Why is that funny?

Do you know something that we don't? About Oct 21, 2024?

Yeah from being at the event, and having played the space age i guess there's stuff i must know that you don't x)

I think it is funny because it's ridiculous to want to talk about new weapons, and excluding the only one you know about.

It seem non-sensical to me, like most of your points in general x)

[XT-248]

Spidertron, in vanilla 1.1.x Factorio, only can use rocket ammunition and personal laser defense modules to deal damage. Why is that funny?

Do you know something that we don't? About Oct 21, 2024?

Yeah from being at the event, and having played the space age i guess there's stuff i must know that you don't x)

I think it is funny because it's ridiculous to want to talk about new weapons, and excluding the only one you know about.

It seem non-sensical to me, like most of your points in general x)

I didn't start the following topics of conversations: "talking about new weapons" and "excluding only ones I know about," someone else did.


I don't use artillery turrets/wagons as my primary means of clearing fauna. This does not mean that I ignore them. I use them when I need them and no more, no less.

I am excluding the 'new' Tesla Gun weapon as an alternative to personal laser defense or rocket ammunition because a hand-held weapon can't fit on spidertron as there is no open weapon slot to fit a hand-held weapon as far as I know.

Spidertron with personal laser defense modules and a modest amount of 'micro-management' is a viable strategy and can even be fun for some people to play that way.


This leaves me wondering why someone finds how mechanics work in Factorio to be 'funny' and 'non-sensical.'


P.S. I don't think describing how I play Factorio is ridiculous. Someone else did.

[mmmPI]

This leaves me wondering why someone finds how mechanics work in Factorio to be 'funny' and 'non-sensical.'

I find your wording and reasonning non-sensical, when you "hard disagree" and then repeat the same things, or when you say you know people that can't click fast that uses PLD and then you realize how ridiculous it is and you instead say it is your playstyle because obvisouly people that can't click fast do not use PLD as that require lots of micro management.

I also find ridiculous the avoidance of tesla gun due to your own particular playstyle, not understanding that maybe you were doing it wrong and a nerf to a weapon poorly used was made by devs to gives more incentive to use other weapons. If you can't fit it in a spidertron means nothing for the grand scheme of things.

I find it funny that your proposal was to add target selection to the PLD, which was justified as "it would give incentive to use other weapons", when in fact it won't given your playstyle you just want a boost in damage output.

I find it funny that you said this :

I outlined implicitly in my earlier post why I used PLD exclusively, not because it is an "I win" option but because the other options are terrible for different reasons or require constant production/logistics.
At least with PLDs and a large squad of Spidertron, everything is taken care of immediately in the attacking area with little risk of running out of ammunition/firepower or self-attrition from friendly fire.

(it is self-contradicting already) , but you added another contradiction later :

I don't use artillery turrets/wagons as my primary means of clearing fauna. This does not mean that I ignore them. I use them when I need them and no more, no less.

and again

There is no extra benefit in using artillery remote control in a manner that one would consider 'micro-management' when a few clicks on a macro-management level can move the artillery turrets/wagons forward. Artillery Shell Range increases the auto-targeting and manual targeting range by 30% equally.

In one case, 'micro-management' is not a choice but the whole point. In the other case, 'micro-management' is optional and not required.

Like you started complaining that PLD is so good and you don't know how to do without them because the other way are terrible or require constant production/logistic.... this is funny, someone playing factorio complaining that something need to be automated, require constant production and logistic x).

And later you said that it's actually a choice you make to use the "more micro-intensive" approach when you could use the other one just fine, you refuse the automation/logistic/constant production.

I find it funny because with a PLD nerf , you should be happy, you'd have more of micro-management to do, you said it was your favourite playstyle compared to the choice that do not require micro-management.

[Moderated by Koub : no personal attacks please]

[Koub]

[Koub] This discussion drifts slowly from a battle of ideas to a battle of people. If at some point I get the feeling it has gone too far, I will moderate backwards all the way up to the point it started, which is pretty far. Also this as been mostly a discussion between 2 people feel free to switch to PM if you just want to fight each other.

[Stalinlover22]

Finally some balancing to the biters´nest , even in the mid-game was not a challenge destroy it!. That lan-party looks awesome

[sarge945]

Given the previous discussion, I have some thoughts:

1. Accessibility is never a good baseline for balancing. I know this sounds harsh and I don't mean to disparage anyone with disabilities. Making PLD objectively the best and laziest choice in order to facilitate less-able gamers is a terrible idea because it unbalances the game for everyone else. If this is really a problem it should be easy enough to mod it to make PLD overpowered on purpose, but it shouldn't be in the base game.

2. There's a very significant difference between automation and laziness. Factorio is not simply about automation. The depth in Factorio comes from deciding what and when to automate. There is a lot more to the game than "figure out how to make the factory go brr", you need to manage resources, build a base somewhat strategically to fend off attacks, and generally engage with deep systems and mechanics in order to automate in a meaningful and fun way. The basic "figure out the specific layout required to automate production of this specific thing efficiently" gameplay is not really that interesting and once most people figure it out for the first time they blueprint it anyway (or use a blueprint from the internet and skip this step entirely). Working out how to manage a main bus or a train network to efficiently transport items around the factory is far more deep and offers a lot more depth than "how many assemblers do I need and in what order to produce blue circuits. How do I connect belts to make that happen?", which really only offers a handful of useful configurations.

It's important to consider how deep a particular mechanic is when it comes to automation. Gun turrets can be completely automated but still offer a lot of depth due to the importance of their positioning and maintenance. Artillery requires automation but also offers far less depth, and PLD offers almost no depth whatsoever.

Artillery is nice when you're at the end game and just want the biters gone because now you have other priorities, but as an actual method of combat, artillery is lazy. You plonk it down and it clears an area for you. The only real limiting factor is it's expense, it's late-game availability, and the fact that it draws every biter in the local area to itself so you need to make sure you have a well-defended base first before you use it.

The main way in which the player interacts with Artillery, which is manual targeting, realistically adds very little if any depth to the game as well. You're clicking a button and clicking on an enemy nest. There's some minor decision making around where you want to fire, especially with limited shells, but it's not particularly deep, especially when you've automated to the point of essentially having unlimited ammo, then it's just an annoying "click the nests" game.

PLD is VERY lazy. It's available earlier than Artillery IIRC, has no resource maintenance cost (except power, which is renewable), and requires even less effort on the part of the player to use. Just walk around and everything dies. It does require some amount of risk that Artillery does not, because it requires you to be near the nests you want to destroy, but this is offset by artillery drawing enemies to itself, which is far more dangerous overall in my opinion.

Both options are pretty lazy and could do with some depth.

That said, adding "micro-intensive" gameplay like stutter-stepping probably isn't a good fit for Factorio either. Stutter-stepping adds a degree of mechanical skill to the game, which maybe some people would want, but Factorio's is designed to be a more macro-intensive game overall, with the focus on managing a huge base and less on individual movements. Outside of mechanical skill, stutter stepping doesn't really add any depth to Factorio (or Starcraft 2, I would argue) in terms of tactical decision making or high-level gameplay, it's simply a skill check.

A better approach for making PLD more hands-on would probably involve some sort of tactical decision making or resource management surrounding it. For instance, a hotkey to toggle PLD on or off, similar to the personal roboport, with a mechanic where it would "overheat" if fired too many times in quick succession. This would force the player to enable and disable it tactically and rely on more traditional weapons for smaller enemies where the PLD would be wasted.

As for Artillery, I'm mostly okay with it. Honestly the combat on Nauvis could be made a lot more interesting overall, but I feel like this is more related to fundamental issues with the Biter gameplay, rather than Artillery being boring.