Friday Facts #432 - Aquilo

[Wilm0rien]

i just read through the FF about Aquilo and now I'm wondering: where are the enemies?

[Sunseille]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ObccgHQdos0
soon

[Jesperhk]

Looks great but the sound of the railgun is way to high pitched, its like nails on a chalkboard..

I didnt like it, think if i had 20 of these cannons my ears would bleed.
maybe its the sound quality that makes it worse, not sure, but it doesnt sound as smooth as the other weapons in Factorio.

[meganothing]

The alternative solution to the railgun discrepancy (if there is one) would be to rename it. A cool name would be lost, but coolness isn't everything, even on Aquilo

[TheVeteraNoob]

Just a bit of nitpicking that could be an interesting mechanic. Everything in factorio consumes an unholy amount of electricity and as people know. Everything that consumes electricity is a 100% (or sometimes higher) efficient electric heater. So it would be interesting if machines that were running continuously would be self heating. And particularly inefficient things such as productivity infused machines could actually warm the surrounding machines.

[gnutrino]

So, the more I think about the heat mechanics, the more it doesn't sit right with me. From a real world physics point of view, it's about the worst possible solution to the problem: "My machines keep freezing, should I modify the design to include a simple and efficient electric heating element given that it's already got a supply of electricity or should I run miles of uncovered, uninsulated copper heat pipes all over the place on the basis that being next to a chunk of 30 degree copper will surely thaw them?" Not to mention things like pipes full of clearly-liquid-at-ambient-temperatures ammonia somehow freezing over, or the plasma generator pulling several million degree plasma needing a 30 degree heat source to keep from freezing.

When speculating about what a heat mechanic on a frozen world would look like, I was imagining that machines would generate heat proportional to their electricity draw/fuel burnt (because, you know, that's how thermodynamics works) and run slower when under temperature, eventually stopping completely below a threshold. You could then use your skills learned on Gleba to make sure production keeps flowing to keep your assemblers working and producing heat to keep themselves operating and/or pull heat from other areas of the factory (or direct from nuclear reactors/heat towers as we got) to supplement parts of the factory falling behind or just to make sure things don't completely fail to frozen. Maybe have some sort of manual way to get machines up to temperature initially (the fun way would be using the flamethrower, the more sensible way might include some sort of "warmth capsule" that's basically just a thermos full of hot water that you splash around). The cryo-plants could then work the opposite way, needing the heat of operation carried away by coolant and heat pumps (essentially what the cryo-plant in coolant cooling mode does, although it seems a bit over the top to use such an expensive building for such a basic operation...) in order to keep them operating optimally.

I dunno, maybe I'll change my mind once I've played with it a bit, but I can't help but be a bit disappointed that instead we seem to have ended up with Yet Another Routing Puzzle: No Undergrounds Edition instead .

[RoastCabose]

So, the more I think about the heat mechanics, the more it doesn't sit right with me. From a real world physics point of view, it's about the worst possible solution to the problem: "My machines keep freezing, should I modify the design to include a simple and efficient electric heating element given that it's already got a supply of electricity or should I run miles of uncovered, uninsulated copper heat pipes all over the place on the basis that being next to a chunk of 30 degree copper will surely thaw them?" Not to mention things like pipes full of clearly-liquid-at-ambient-temperatures ammonia somehow freezing over, or the plasma generator pulling several million degree plasma needing a 30 degree heat source to keep from freezing.

When speculating about what a heat mechanic on a frozen world would look like, I was imagining that machines would generate heat proportional to their electricity draw/fuel burnt (because, you know, that's how thermodynamics works) and run slower when under temperature, eventually stopping completely below a threshold. You could then use your skills learned on Gleba to make sure production keeps flowing to keep your assemblers working and producing heat to keep themselves operating and/or pull heat from other areas of the factory (or direct from nuclear reactors/heat towers as we got) to supplement parts of the factory falling behind or just to make sure things don't completely fail to frozen. Maybe have some sort of manual way to get machines up to temperature initially (the fun way would be using the flamethrower, the more sensible way might include some sort of "warmth capsule" that's basically just a thermos full of hot water that you splash around). The cryo-plants could then work the opposite way, needing the heat of operation carried away by coolant and heat pumps (essentially what the cryo-plant in coolant cooling mode does, although it seems a bit over the top to use such an expensive building for such a basic operation...) in order to keep them operating optimally.

I dunno, maybe I'll change my mind once I've played with it a bit, but I can't help but be a bit disappointed that instead we seem to have ended up with Yet Another Routing Puzzle: No Undergrounds Edition instead .

I mean, the thing is, there still has to be a puzzle here to figure out. If the answer ends up being "you just have to use these hot-versions of machines", or like, "use a module slot for a heating module", then that's a boring mechanic. You do something once and don't worry about it.

Needing to cluster machines together could be a thing, but then you also run in to the issues of clarity, like, why does this cluster of machines work together, but this one doesn't. AND the whole thing has to automatable.

The current problem has fuzzy solutions, clear feedback, interacts in interesting ways with other logistic problems, makes use of previously very niche items (heat pipes), looks cool in practice, all simply at the cost of not being very realistic. Which, isn't that Factorio's normal modus operandi?

Not saying you don't have a point, but i think there are some good reasons foe this solution over others. Plus, a lot of the planets have left complexity on the table, and you know mods will come up with the more dense, realistic versions of these mechanics.

[SuddenlySentient]

I really hope we'll see some robot enemies on one of these planets, I think it would really mix things up. Imagine if a tank rolls up to your factory and then you get to use YOUR tank to fight it. Imagine fighting an army of terminator-esque robot gunners. Imagine them walking out of the smoke of a chemical artillery strike like it's nothing. I can't help but imagine all the possibilities. I don't expect to be disappointed by whatever the team cooks up, even if it's not robots.

[SuddenlySentient]

Also I really don't know why you guys are complaining about needing to heat up your machines on this planet because 'It's not realistic'. Of course It's not realistic, but if it were realistic that wouldn't make it better, realism is only good if it is also fun. On this last planet the "enemy" IS the cold, you had bugs and slugs and pentapods, and now you must fight the cold. if half of the machines self heated in an attempt at realism, then that would reduce the challenge of what I think is supposed to be the hardest planet. Cold spikes/Blizzards would be neat. The Factory Must Grow and The City Must Survive.

[ombus]

I really hope we'll see some robot enemies on one of these planets, I think it would really mix things up. Imagine if a tank rolls up to your factory and then you get to use YOUR tank to fight it. Imagine fighting an army of terminator-esque robot gunners. Imagine them walking out of the smoke of a chemical artillery strike like it's nothing. I can't help but imagine all the possibilities. I don't expect to be disappointed by whatever the team cooks up, even if it's not robots.

oh man i was thinking exactly that for fulgora... robots that were built by the the civilization that we find.. and they went skynet on them... and now that we arrive and start collecting holmium the accummulation of it could be the " pollution " expansion so more robots detect it and attack.. also as the flying monster was scraped i would be on the side of flying robots.. maybe like construction and logisitc ones..

[mcmase]

Just a bit of nitpicking that could be an interesting mechanic. Everything in factorio consumes an unholy amount of electricity and as people know. Everything that consumes electricity is a 100% (or sometimes higher) efficient electric heater. So it would be interesting if machines that were running continuously would be self heating. And particularly inefficient things such as productivity infused machines could actually warm the surrounding machines.

So, the more I think about the heat mechanics, the more it doesn't sit right with me. From a real world physics point of view, it's about the worst possible solution to the problem: "My machines keep freezing, should I modify the design to include a simple and efficient electric heating element given that it's already got a supply of electricity or should I run miles of uncovered, uninsulated copper heat pipes all over the place on the basis that being next to a chunk of 30 degree copper will surely thaw them?" Not to mention things like pipes full of clearly-liquid-at-ambient-temperatures ammonia somehow freezing over, or the plasma generator pulling several million degree plasma needing a 30 degree heat source to keep from freezing.

When speculating about what a heat mechanic on a frozen world would look like, I was imagining that machines would generate heat proportional to their electricity draw/fuel burnt (because, you know, that's how thermodynamics works) and run slower when under temperature, eventually stopping completely below a threshold. You could then use your skills learned on Gleba to make sure production keeps flowing to keep your assemblers working and producing heat to keep themselves operating and/or pull heat from other areas of the factory (or direct from nuclear reactors/heat towers as we got) to supplement parts of the factory falling behind or just to make sure things don't completely fail to frozen. Maybe have some sort of manual way to get machines up to temperature initially (the fun way would be using the flamethrower, the more sensible way might include some sort of "warmth capsule" that's basically just a thermos full of hot water that you splash around). The cryo-plants could then work the opposite way, needing the heat of operation carried away by coolant and heat pumps (essentially what the cryo-plant in coolant cooling mode does, although it seems a bit over the top to use such an expensive building for such a basic operation...) in order to keep them operating optimally.

I dunno, maybe I'll change my mind once I've played with it a bit, but I can't help but be a bit disappointed that instead we seem to have ended up with Yet Another Routing Puzzle: No Undergrounds Edition instead .

I agree with you guys completely, came here to say this. I think that running copper wiring everywhere is much less interesting challenge than "how do I keep all of my electric machines constantly generating heat". The copper wiring could come in only when you've made a mistake and frozen a section of your base, or to keep idle machines active. Or maybe assemblers need copper wiring (machines can easily freeze up) but I just don't see how a furnace wouldn't self-heat, as was said above.

But who knows, I'm 100% sure the devs thought of that and probably have a really good reason they went a different direction. I'm not turned off from the expansion in the slightest.

[malecord]

Now... shouldn't the heat pipes attach to the machines on this planet? If the atmosphere is that cold having a tube nearby won't be enough, right? It would just disperse the heat.

[doktorstick]

Now... shouldn't the heat pipes attach to the machines on this planet? If the atmosphere is that cold having a tube nearby won't be enough, right? It would just disperse the heat.

Take hallucinations as possible. I asked ChatGPT o1-preview this, and at 1 atm of pressure, the coldest it could be is -77C for a ocean of ammonia. If it was more like a normal outer solar planet of -200C (or lower), it would have to be in the gigapascals of pressure... we can probably assume the temperature isn't too far from -77C.

Final Answer
At 1 atm pressure, starting from -77°C, the heat pipes need to be maintained at approximately 119°C (246°F) to raise the ambient temperature to a minimum of 30°C in a 27 m³ volume over 1 hour.

[PrinceDest1ny]

Just a bit of nitpicking that could be an interesting mechanic. Everything in factorio consumes an unholy amount of electricity and as people know. Everything that consumes electricity is a 100% (or sometimes higher) efficient electric heater. So it would be interesting if machines that were running continuously would be self heating. And particularly inefficient things such as productivity infused machines could actually warm the surrounding machines.

So, the more I think about the heat mechanics, the more it doesn't sit right with me. From a real world physics point of view, it's about the worst possible solution to the problem: "My machines keep freezing, should I modify the design to include a simple and efficient electric heating element given that it's already got a supply of electricity or should I run miles of uncovered, uninsulated copper heat pipes all over the place on the basis that being next to a chunk of 30 degree copper will surely thaw them?" Not to mention things like pipes full of clearly-liquid-at-ambient-temperatures ammonia somehow freezing over, or the plasma generator pulling several million degree plasma needing a 30 degree heat source to keep from freezing.

I agree with you guys completely, came here to say this. I think that running copper wiring everywhere is much less interesting challenge than "how do I keep all of my electric machines constantly generating heat". The copper wiring could come in only when you've made a mistake and frozen a section of your base, or to keep idle machines active. Or maybe assemblers need copper wiring (machines can easily freeze up) but I just don't see how a furnace wouldn't self-heat, as was said above.

But who knows, I'm 100% sure the devs thought of that and probably have a really good reason they went a different direction. I'm not turned off from the expansion in the slightest.

So I think a solution to this would be to have all running machines(assemblers, chemical plants, boilers etc.) not be able to freeze if they're running, but not be able to heat anything around them, while any kind of transport medium(pipes, belts, inserters power poles) freezes instantly if they're not heated. That way you still need to heat everything that isn't a running machine, but machines don't freeze on their own.

Obviously machines don't automatically unfreeze once they get supplies, that has to be said, and not everything should work the same way(I think an assembler should run cold enough to freeze, while the heaters and nuclear should start running automatically with fuel)

[D Flip-Flop]

Here it is! (beep boop)

https://factorio.com/blog/post/fff-432

Everything is awesome! But it would be perfect if the railgun has a more boom-down/sci-fi sound, a shimmering blue electric trail left behind after it fires, also maybe a suction-in-place sound when reloading!

[WarStalkeR]

I believe electric-like discharge sound will be more suitable for railgun, as can be seen on this old railgun test video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O2QqOvFMG_A

[Upserter]

So, the more I think about the heat mechanics, the more it doesn't sit right with me. From a real world physics point of view, it's about the worst possible solution to the problem: "My machines keep freezing, should I modify the design to include a simple and efficient electric heating element given that it's already got a supply of electricity or should I run miles of uncovered, uninsulated copper heat pipes all over the place on the basis that being next to a chunk of 30 degree copper will surely thaw them?" Not to mention things like pipes full of clearly-liquid-at-ambient-temperatures ammonia somehow freezing over, or the plasma generator pulling several million degree plasma needing a 30 degree heat source to keep from freezing.

When speculating about what a heat mechanic on a frozen world would look like, I was imagining that machines would generate heat proportional to their electricity draw/fuel burnt (because, you know, that's how thermodynamics works) and run slower when under temperature, eventually stopping completely below a threshold. You could then use your skills learned on Gleba to make sure production keeps flowing to keep your assemblers working and producing heat to keep themselves operating and/or pull heat from other areas of the factory (or direct from nuclear reactors/heat towers as we got) to supplement parts of the factory falling behind or just to make sure things don't completely fail to frozen. Maybe have some sort of manual way to get machines up to temperature initially (the fun way would be using the flamethrower, the more sensible way might include some sort of "warmth capsule" that's basically just a thermos full of hot water that you splash around). The cryo-plants could then work the opposite way, needing the heat of operation carried away by coolant and heat pumps (essentially what the cryo-plant in coolant cooling mode does, although it seems a bit over the top to use such an expensive building for such a basic operation...) in order to keep them operating optimally.

I dunno, maybe I'll change my mind once I've played with it a bit, but I can't help but be a bit disappointed that instead we seem to have ended up with Yet Another Routing Puzzle: No Undergrounds Edition instead .

I don't mind something being unrealistic as long as it's fun, and I also don't think it's crazy unrealistic that a heat-producing building might still need to have an external source of heat. Like, a car engine produces heat, but the heated seats don't use the waste heat from the engine.

Anyway, I still think your idea has merit, since keeping your machines working constantly is actually a significant challenge. The heat pipes (or the flamethrower) could be used to cold-start the machines, but then if they are at >90% utilisation they could produce enough internal heat to not need to draw from the heat pipes. You'd get an effective efficiency improvement for maintaining steady high utilisation, which is something that I don't think the game currently rewards you for. Input supply interruptions, or output consumption interruptions, would have real consequence beyond just seeing items back up on belts!

[Muche]

Anyway, I still think your idea has merit, since keeping your machines working constantly is actually a significant challenge. The heat pipes (or the flamethrower) could be used to cold-start the machines, but then if they are at >90% utilisation they could produce enough internal heat to not need to draw from the heat pipes. You'd get an effective efficiency improvement for maintaining steady high utilisation, which is something that I don't think the game currently rewards you for. Input supply interruptions, or output consumption interruptions, would have real consequence beyond just seeing items back up on belts!

Gleba's spoiling mechanic kinda touches this, as it discourages buffering, a.k.a. interrupted machine utilisation due to insufficient consumption.

[DrakeyC]

Only just seeing the discourse on the freezing mechanic, tossing in my two cents. I don't hate it, but yeah, seeing the electric furnace burning bright and thinking "without an external heating pipe next to it, it'd stop working and freeze over", that doesn't make sense. But I also agree it would be pretty boring if all machines heat themselves.

What about "insulated concrete"? Concrete that contains heating elements within it, like underground power lines or sewage pipes, and it provides heat within a radius like power cables. Or maybe only certain machines heat themselves, like furnaces, boilers, and oil refineries? That could open the door for mechanics like each of them offering heat within a radius, so you could locate these buildings closer to crafting machines and the like to heat them. I'm also curious what consideration was given, if any, to the idea of Steam being used to heat buildings? Maybe not as efficiently as heat from pipes, but something.

The thing that I found odd is the repetition of the idea that you need to build on concrete to protect the ice underfoot from the heat. Why? As you said, the ice doesn't melt, and thank god, it'd be a horrible mechanic to deal with the ground under your factory vanishing, isolating you and almost certainly destroying objects on it. But if we don't place concrete on the ice, what is the drawback? We can't build on unexposed ice at all? We can't build heat pipes over unexposed ice?

[Tertius]

I'm quite happy with the unexpected task to touch everything with a heat pipe. This has an interesting interaction with beacons being buffed for low beacon amounts. The reduced space makes it impossible to add higher amounts of beacons, but even a single beacon or two sneaked into the build will give a significant boost. It's also interesting to see the long-handed inserter gets new utility in these builds. In existing builds, it is more some kind of emergency solution if you refuse to feed different items per lane, but on Aquilo it will probably be a standard solution to reach over heat pipes.

I guess we will see many beautiful spaghetti builds on Aquilo and even build some on our own. On the other hand, we will probably build more with logistic bots in mind. As far as I see the videos, bots still work and will not freeze to death.