3 and 4 way intersections

Smart setups of railway stations, intelligent routing, solutions to complex train-routing problems.
Please provide - only if it makes sense of course - a blueprint of your creation.
Post Reply
Copy link
coppercoil
Filter Inserter
Filter Inserter
Posts: 500
Joined: Tue Jun 26, 2018 10:14 am
Contact:
Contact coppercoil

Re: 3 and 4 way intersections

Post by coppercoil »

I mostly use "T" intersections, I made these compact and symmetrical. Like all my real-game intersections, they support U-turns.

For the scoring, I run Testbench Forum Test that does not include U turns as they are not optimized and should be used rarely, though intersections were also tested for U turns with Everything Test.

Bottle+U
Bottle_U.png
Bottle_U.png (808.82 KiB) Viewed 521 times


----------

Airplane+U
Airplane+U.png
Airplane+U.png (1.23 MiB) Viewed 521 times
Last edited by coppercoil on Mon Nov 11, 2024 11:24 pm, edited 3 times in total.
Top
PiggyWhiskey
Filter Inserter
Filter Inserter
Posts: 255
Joined: Wed May 13, 2015 5:28 am
Contact:
Contact PiggyWhiskey

Re: 3 and 4 way intersections

Post by PiggyWhiskey »

I made a LHD version of the Elevated 2-Lane 4-Way by Zaanza

I eliminated to lane change which isn't needed as trains change earlier, and I shortened the lead in as there are long enough lengths within the intersection to hold any trains for the merge out.
11-11-2024, 17-29-36.png
11-11-2024, 17-29-36.png (808.93 KiB) Viewed 797 times
11-11-2024, 17-28-14.png
11-11-2024, 17-28-14.png (28.84 KiB) Viewed 797 times
Top
Locutus123456
Burner Inserter
Burner Inserter
Posts: 11
Joined: Tue Oct 29, 2024 7:44 pm
Contact:
Contact Locutus123456

Re: 3 and 4 way intersections

Post by Locutus123456 »

PiggyWhiskey wrote: ↑Mon Nov 11, 2024 6:30 am
That is a very efficient design. But why do the test results indicate that there are 3 lanes instead of 2?
Top
PiggyWhiskey
Filter Inserter
Filter Inserter
Posts: 255
Joined: Wed May 13, 2015 5:28 am
Contact:
Contact PiggyWhiskey

Re: 3 and 4 way intersections

Post by PiggyWhiskey »

Locutus123456 wrote: ↑Mon Nov 11, 2024 6:57 am
PiggyWhiskey wrote: ↑Mon Nov 11, 2024 6:30 am
That is a very efficient design. But why do the test results indicate that there are 3 lanes instead of 2?
Thank you

For the 3 lanes, I'm not sure to be honest. Perhaps it sees the split right at the start, and counts it as 2 separate lanes.
Top
Factoriointersection
Long Handed Inserter
Long Handed Inserter
Posts: 53
Joined: Sat Sep 25, 2021 4:58 pm
Contact:
Contact Factoriointersection

Re: 3 and 4 way intersections

Post by Factoriointersection »

coppercoil wrote: ↑Sun Nov 10, 2024 11:29 pm @Factoriointersection> Could you rename my blueprint from "RampU" to "Lilac+U"?

-------

I mostly use "T" intersections, I made these compact and symmetrical. Like all my real-game intersections, they support U-turns.

Bottle+U

Bottle_U.png


----------

Airplane+U

Airplane_U.png
Yes, I can rename. Both the intersection you posted deadlock. For intersections with U-turns, they should be tested with the Everything test. Actually so does the first one you posted, so I'll take them off the site untill they don't deadlock.
Top
Factoriointersection
Long Handed Inserter
Long Handed Inserter
Posts: 53
Joined: Sat Sep 25, 2021 4:58 pm
Contact:
Contact Factoriointersection

Re: 3 and 4 way intersections

Post by Factoriointersection »

PiggyWhiskey wrote: ↑Mon Nov 11, 2024 6:30 am I made a LHD version of the Elevated 2-Lane 4-Way by Zaanza

I eliminated to lane change which isn't needed as trains change earlier, and I shortened the lead in as there are long enough lengths within the intersection to hold any trains for the merge out.

11-11-2024, 17-29-36.png

11-11-2024, 17-28-14.png

There is a loose rail that causes the test to place extra stations. 3 per direction, so effectively it is a 3-lane. I adjusted the bp and retested it
Top
coppercoil
Filter Inserter
Filter Inserter
Posts: 500
Joined: Tue Jun 26, 2018 10:14 am
Contact:
Contact coppercoil

Re: 3 and 4 way intersections

Post by coppercoil »

Factoriointersection wrote: ↑Mon Nov 11, 2024 7:26 amFor intersections with U-turns, they should be tested with the Everything test.
What is Everything test?
Top
Factoriointersection
Long Handed Inserter
Long Handed Inserter
Posts: 53
Joined: Sat Sep 25, 2021 4:58 pm
Contact:
Contact Factoriointersection

Re: 3 and 4 way intersections

Post by Factoriointersection »

coppercoil wrote: ↑Mon Nov 11, 2024 10:16 am
Factoriointersection wrote: ↑Mon Nov 11, 2024 7:26 amFor intersections with U-turns, they should be tested with the Everything test.
What is Everything test?
In settings you can choose between "Testbench forum test" or "Everything test".
The Everything test sends trains to every possible station and allows lane switching and u turns. Great for testing non standard intersections
Top
coppercoil
Filter Inserter
Filter Inserter
Posts: 500
Joined: Tue Jun 26, 2018 10:14 am
Contact:
Contact coppercoil

Re: 3 and 4 way intersections

Post by coppercoil »

Factoriointersection wrote: ↑Mon Nov 11, 2024 12:10 pm In settings you can choose between "Testbench forum test" or "Everything test".
I still don't get, where are these settings, which mod? Is there some url explaining these particular settings?
Top
Factoriointersection
Long Handed Inserter
Long Handed Inserter
Posts: 53
Joined: Sat Sep 25, 2021 4:58 pm
Contact:
Contact Factoriointersection

Re: 3 and 4 way intersections

Post by Factoriointersection »

coppercoil wrote: ↑Mon Nov 11, 2024 1:09 pm
Factoriointersection wrote: ↑Mon Nov 11, 2024 12:10 pm In settings you can choose between "Testbench forum test" or "Everything test".
I still don't get, where are these settings, which mod? Is there some url explaining these particular settings?
I show it in this video.
https://www.reddit.com/r/factorio/comme ... testbench/
Top
coppercoil
Filter Inserter
Filter Inserter
Posts: 500
Joined: Tue Jun 26, 2018 10:14 am
Contact:
Contact coppercoil

Re: 3 and 4 way intersections

Post by coppercoil »

Factoriointersection wrote: ↑Mon Nov 11, 2024 1:12 pmI show it in this video.
https://www.reddit.com/r/factorio/comme ... testbench/
Thank you, I found it. That button is almost invisible to me :D. Please consider making a large dedicated button on the Control Panel.
Top
Factoriointersection
Long Handed Inserter
Long Handed Inserter
Posts: 53
Joined: Sat Sep 25, 2021 4:58 pm
Contact:
Contact Factoriointersection

Re: 3 and 4 way intersections

Post by Factoriointersection »

coppercoil wrote: ↑Mon Nov 11, 2024 1:18 pm
Factoriointersection wrote: ↑Mon Nov 11, 2024 1:12 pmI show it in this video.
https://www.reddit.com/r/factorio/comme ... testbench/
Thank you, I found it. That button is almost invisible to me :D. Please consider making a large dedicated button on the Control Panel.
Good=)
Yeah, I'll change the icon. Making it more visible. Im overhauling the UI atm.
Top
Locutus123456
Burner Inserter
Burner Inserter
Posts: 11
Joined: Tue Oct 29, 2024 7:44 pm
Contact:
Contact Locutus123456

Re: 3 and 4 way intersections

Post by Locutus123456 »

I was a bit disappointed that my latest intersection scored just below the currently top ranking Zaanza intersection. So I loaded that to see what I could learn from it. However, when running the benchmark a few times I noticed that the performance randomly varies up to almost 10 trains per minute for both Zaanza and my own intersections.

This can be stabilized by setting the number of trains per track to 50 instead of 35. Is this something others observe also? If so, would 50 not be a better default testing parameter?

Back to my original quest to further improve my intersection, I noticed that Zaanza uses very long buffer lanes, so I decided to doubled my buffer lanes. This makes my intersection almost as big as Zaanza's which did indeed improve performance. However, 50 trains per track is needed to get stable estimates.
Screenshot 2024-11-11 153854.png
Screenshot 2024-11-11 153854.png (784.54 KiB) Viewed 652 times


@Factoriointersection are you willing to add my 4 lane adaptation (viewtopic.php?p=636981#p636981) to the 4 lane leader board? I think my solution with the input adapter is a valid design pattern for 4 lane intersections.
Top
Locutus123456
Burner Inserter
Burner Inserter
Posts: 11
Joined: Tue Oct 29, 2024 7:44 pm
Contact:
Contact Locutus123456

Re: 3 and 4 way intersections

Post by Locutus123456 »

Factoriointersection wrote: ↑Mon Nov 11, 2024 2:10 pm Good=)
Yeah, I'll change the icon. Making it more visible. Im overhauling the UI atm.
If I might make a suggestion, is it possible to add the factorio version and the mod version in the test report? This way it is clear when it is needed to rerun a benchmark should something change in either train control of factorio or the benchmarking suite.
Top
Factoriointersection
Long Handed Inserter
Long Handed Inserter
Posts: 53
Joined: Sat Sep 25, 2021 4:58 pm
Contact:
Contact Factoriointersection

Re: 3 and 4 way intersections

Post by Factoriointersection »

Locutus123456 wrote: ↑Mon Nov 11, 2024 4:20 pm
Factoriointersection wrote: ↑Mon Nov 11, 2024 2:10 pm Good=)
Yeah, I'll change the icon. Making it more visible. Im overhauling the UI atm.
If I might make a suggestion, is it possible to add the factorio version and the mod version in the test report? This way it is clear when it is needed to rerun a benchmark should something change in either train control of factorio or the benchmarking suite.
I actually did add the mod version:) game version is a bit more tricky, but I'll look into it.
Top
Factoriointersection
Long Handed Inserter
Long Handed Inserter
Posts: 53
Joined: Sat Sep 25, 2021 4:58 pm
Contact:
Contact Factoriointersection

Re: 3 and 4 way intersections

Post by Factoriointersection »

Locutus123456 wrote: ↑Mon Nov 11, 2024 2:57 pm I was a bit disappointed that my latest intersection scored just below the currently top ranking Zaanza intersection. So I loaded that to see what I could learn from it. However, when running the benchmark a few times I noticed that the performance randomly varies up to almost 10 trains per minute for both Zaanza and my own intersections.

This can be stabilized by setting the number of trains per track to 50 instead of 35. Is this something others observe also? If so, would 50 not be a better default testing parameter?

Back to my original quest to further improve my intersection, I noticed that Zaanza uses very long buffer lanes, so I decided to doubled my buffer lanes. This makes my intersection almost as big as Zaanza's which did indeed improve performance. However, 50 trains per track is needed to get stable estimates.

Screenshot 2024-11-11 153854.png



@Factoriointersection are you willing to add my 4 lane adaptation (viewtopic.php?p=636981#p636981) to the 4 lane leader board? I think my solution with the input adapter is a valid design pattern for 4 lane intersections.
Up to 10 is pretty bad.
Does the 4 lane thing allow lane changing?
You need to run way more tests to confirm that 50 is better. Like to find the margin of error we probably need to run like 50 tests
Top
Locutus123456
Burner Inserter
Burner Inserter
Posts: 11
Joined: Tue Oct 29, 2024 7:44 pm
Contact:
Contact Locutus123456

Re: 3 and 4 way intersections

Post by Locutus123456 »

Factoriointersection wrote: ↑Mon Nov 11, 2024 4:47 pm Up to 10 is pretty bad.
Does the 4 lane thing allow lane changing?
You need to run way more tests to confirm that 50 is better. Like to find the margin of error we probably need to run like 50 tests
My four lane intersection is fully connected allowing each station to reach any other station in the different directions. Does that awnser your question?

As for the testing, if it is possible to simply automaticly write the results of 50 sequential test to a text box that can be copied to the clipboard? Then I can just run it for an hour and do some statistics. Is this possible with the benchmarking mod?
Top
Factoriointersection
Long Handed Inserter
Long Handed Inserter
Posts: 53
Joined: Sat Sep 25, 2021 4:58 pm
Contact:
Contact Factoriointersection

Re: 3 and 4 way intersections

Post by Factoriointersection »

Locutus123456 wrote: ↑Mon Nov 11, 2024 5:11 pm
Factoriointersection wrote: ↑Mon Nov 11, 2024 4:47 pm Up to 10 is pretty bad.
Does the 4 lane thing allow lane changing?
You need to run way more tests to confirm that 50 is better. Like to find the margin of error we probably need to run like 50 tests
My four lane intersection is fully connected allowing each station to reach any other station in the different directions. Does that awnser your question?

As for the testing, if it is possible to simply automaticly write the results of 50 sequential test to a text box that can be copied to the clipboard? Then I can just run it for an hour and do some statistics. Is this possible with the benchmarking mod?
All the results are logged in factorio-current.log. found in: C:\Users\USER\AppData\Roaming\Factorio
Top
Locutus123456
Burner Inserter
Burner Inserter
Posts: 11
Joined: Tue Oct 29, 2024 7:44 pm
Contact:
Contact Locutus123456

Re: 3 and 4 way intersections

Post by Locutus123456 »

Factoriointersection wrote: ↑Mon Nov 11, 2024 5:53 pm
Locutus123456 wrote: ↑Mon Nov 11, 2024 5:11 pm
Factoriointersection wrote: ↑Mon Nov 11, 2024 4:47 pm Up to 10 is pretty bad.
Does the 4 lane thing allow lane changing?
You need to run way more tests to confirm that 50 is better. Like to find the margin of error we probably need to run like 50 tests
My four lane intersection is fully connected allowing each station to reach any other station in the different directions. Does that awnser your question?

As for the testing, if it is possible to simply automaticly write the results of 50 sequential test to a text box that can be copied to the clipboard? Then I can just run it for an hour and do some statistics. Is this possible with the benchmarking mod?
All the results are logged in factorio-current.log. found in: C:\Users\USER\AppData\Roaming\Factorio
Ooh that is nice, however it is a bit annoying to parse. Can you write the score line like this:

Code: Select all

Test 1 score \t $score
Optionally including the rest of the information into the other columns.

Then I can simply grep the relevant lines and subsequently read it using a tab separated file reader.
Top
Factoriointersection
Long Handed Inserter
Long Handed Inserter
Posts: 53
Joined: Sat Sep 25, 2021 4:58 pm
Contact:
Contact Factoriointersection

Re: 3 and 4 way intersections

Post by Factoriointersection »

Locutus123456 wrote: ↑Mon Nov 11, 2024 6:41 pm
Factoriointersection wrote: ↑Mon Nov 11, 2024 5:53 pm
Locutus123456 wrote: ↑Mon Nov 11, 2024 5:11 pm
Factoriointersection wrote: ↑Mon Nov 11, 2024 4:47 pm Up to 10 is pretty bad.
Does the 4 lane thing allow lane changing?
You need to run way more tests to confirm that 50 is better. Like to find the margin of error we probably need to run like 50 tests
My four lane intersection is fully connected allowing each station to reach any other station in the different directions. Does that awnser your question?

As for the testing, if it is possible to simply automaticly write the results of 50 sequential test to a text box that can be copied to the clipboard? Then I can just run it for an hour and do some statistics. Is this possible with the benchmarking mod?
All the results are logged in factorio-current.log. found in: C:\Users\USER\AppData\Roaming\Factorio
Ooh that is nice, however it is a bit annoying to parse. Can you write the score line like this:

Code: Select all

Test 1 score \t $score
Optionally including the rest of the information into the other columns.

Then I can simply grep the relevant lines and subsequently read it using a tab separated file reader.
Yeah, also you can run 1000min test and that should conclude whether 50 matters over 35
Top
Post Reply

Return to “Railway Setups”