Cliff explosives

[quineotio]

Maybe the current progression would make more sense if you had actually been to Vulcanus. That seem quite weird to me to suggest change in the game in area you admitedly haven't discovered yet.

Lol.

[CyberCider]

You make cliffs sound like such a big deal, when they really aren’t. The new Nauvis generation (few cliffs, but each is very large) pretty much makes cliffs only affect your railways. And now elevated rails exist. So cliffs become mostly ignorable pretty early. Only on Vulcanus are they ramped up enough to really affect you, and that’s where you get the explosives anyway. The explosives are now essentially a Vulcanus item, that is primarily useful on Vulcanus against one of its specific challenges. Their use on other planets is only a secondary benefit.
If you have a phobia of cliffs or something, then change the settings, they made it an option. This is just a non-existent problem for the vast majority of players.

[BHakluyt]

It's annoying to speedrun Vulcanus just to get the cliff explosives. Don't want to disable them, so don't make me. In 1.0 I also always speedrun for the cliff explosives primarily

[Tinyboss]

It's annoying to speedrun Vulcanus just to get the cliff explosives. Don't want to disable them, so don't make me.

That's your choice. You have options, and you don't want to use them. You are free to do that, but it's not a remotely compelling argument for a change in the game.

[mmmPI]

It's annoying to speedrun Vulcanus just to get the cliff explosives.

Then don't do it ^^

It's a great feeling of progression to unlock progressively techniques that allow solving things that used to be problems.

Don't want to disable them, so don't make me.

For things that have no argument except personnal preferences =>https://mods.factorio.com/search?query= ... ersion=2.0

You can reduce them too in settings, don't want to use the settings made for people like you nor the mods ? don't complain

In 1.0 I also always speedrun for the cliff explosives primarily

In 2.0 you have elevated rails , less cliffs, nukes that can destroy them ,and planet like Fulgora that have only little cliffs, this argument is the weakest, in 1.0 many things were different that's kind of the point of the expansion

[Uranium_train_driver]

You have my full support OP. Don't let them minimize your opinion because you haven't completed the game, nor bully you into "turning off cliffs". The FACT is that we had an uncontroversial system already in place, and the direction chosen to preserve Vulcanus harmed Nauvis in the process. It's completely reasonable to ask for a resolution to alleviate the damage caused to the early game experience. Cheers.

[quineotio]

That's your choice. You have options, and you don't want to use them.

Then don't do it

Jesus died for our sins according to the scriptures, was buried, and rose again the third day according to the scriptures. The scriptures are the King James Bible.

[Sworn]

lol
At the end, everything narrows down to personal preference. Impossible to say "that is not only for me", it is what drives you...

Anyways, I guess I said enough already.

I also agree with the point that we should have different cliffs per planet, a cliff made of dirt and iron ore is not the same as a cliff made of hardened lava and tungsten, or a cliff that is made of oil gue..

I made this quick mod that more or less gives what I was suggesting: https://mods.factorio.com/mod/LandfillCliffPerWorld

[Dogman15]

I like the idea of a special type of cliff explosive for Vulcanus's cliffs that can only be researched on Vulcanus (using calcite) and retaining the original recipe (without calcite) for Nauvis. The calcite-infused cliff explosives should only be necessary for destroying Vulcanus's cliffs; not Nauvis's cliffs.

[mmmPI]

Maybe the current progression would make more sense if you had actually been to Vulcanus. That seem quite weird to me to suggest change in the game in area you admitedly haven't discovered yet.

Lol.

I'm glad you find it funny and don't get offended by the substance of the message.

Jesus died for our sins according to the scriptures, was buried, and rose again the third day according to the scriptures. The scriptures are the King James Bible.

You don't have to copy paste random thing to show you have nothing else to say, your previous comment was illustrating enough imo.

[nzer]

This is what I'm saying. I don't think it needs to be this way. I don't feel this way about any tech other than cliff explosives.

You don't feel this way about any tech other than cliff explosives. Others don't feel this way about cliff explosives at all, or may feel this way about some other tech.

It's not the same thing to due the amount of commitment. Bee lining the circuit network doesn't require hours of investment, it just requires selecting particular techs on the tech tree while you do exactly the same thing.

Fixating on the particular example is missing my point. Some people bee-line nuclear power, while others ignore it entirely. Some people go to Fulgora first because they want recyclers or mech armor. Some people go to Gleba first because they want spidertron.

The point is that interpreting this as the game railroading you rather than you simply prioritizing something you feel is important is a choice you're making.

[quineotio]

You don't feel this way about any tech other than cliff explosives. Others don't feel this way about cliff explosives at all, or may feel this way about some other tech.

Imagine if the circuit network was locked behind Vulcanus tech, and then imagine me making your argument to you.

[Tinyboss]

You don't feel this way about any tech other than cliff explosives. Others don't feel this way about cliff explosives at all, or may feel this way about some other tech.

Imagine if the circuit network was locked behind Vulcanus tech, and then imagine me making your argument to you.

I'm glad Wube has better sense than that. You could equally well ask us to imagine belts being unlocked at Fulgora. Not like you can't move everything with a series of inserters, am I right?

But not all opinions are equal, I'm sorry.

[nzer]

Imagine if the circuit network was locked behind Vulcanus tech, and then imagine me making your argument to you.

I don't have to imagine it, that is literally what I did when I made the argument. Or did you miss the part of my last post where I mentioned techs from other planets?

[Fharkas]

Started with Vulcanus, so waiting one planet to get the cliff explosives was manageable. A nice reward.
However, I can already foresee that on my next plays, with different planet priorities, it will be both a bit restrictive, an interesting challenge to work around and a huge annoyance of not having them for a long time.
On Fugora, it was nice removing island edge cliffs to have more space for the elevated rail ramp. On Nauvis, I don't want to elevate my rails just to go over some cliffs, I want to mindlessly destroy them when expanding...

[Uranium_train_driver]

You don't feel this way about any tech other than cliff explosives. Others don't feel this way about cliff explosives at all, or may feel this way about some other tech.

Imagine if the circuit network was locked behind Vulcanus tech, and then imagine me making your argument to you.

These guys are pretending to not understand why changing a system that worked well for 8 years is so unpopular. They are just trolling and/or white knighting and not worth the time. Ultimately we know it is a bad design choice and that's all that matters. I've seen many such criticisms. of the Cliff Explosives change. It is bad.

[HadesSupreme]

I'd be fine if cliff explosives was made yellow science. It's weird that enabling space age penalizes your technology like this. I can't see any good argument why tech progression should be vastly changed for something fairly essential like this. You could make it so that Vulcanus variant of cliff explosives is needed to destroy cliffs on all planets other than Nauvis, whatever.

[CyberCider]

These guys are pretending to not understand why changing a system that worked well for 8 years is so unpopular. They are just trolling and/or white knighting and not worth the time. Ultimately we know it is a bad design choice and that's all that matters. I've seen many such criticisms. of the Cliff Explosives change. It is bad.

I didn’t know Space Age has already been out for 8 years. Time flies when you’re playing factorio, I guess
Things changed. In 1.1 cliffs were a) Generated very annoyingly and b) Impossible to build through in any way other than destroying them. But both of those things are no longer true in Space Age. So, cliff explosives were turned into a Vulcanus tech for solving a Vulcanus problem. They used an old tech instead of making a new one because they understand the concept of bloat. Unlike many of their game’s players…

[Tinyboss]

I'd be fine if cliff explosives was made yellow science. It's weird that enabling space age penalizes your technology like this. I can't see any good argument why tech progression should be vastly changed for something fairly essential like this. You could make it so that Vulcanus variant of cliff explosives is needed to destroy cliffs on all planets other than Nauvis, whatever.

Here's where I disagree. I flew my ship unmanned to Aquilo and back last night in preparation for starting there, and I have yet to build a single cliff explosive. It's not that I'm doing some self-imposed challenge, either. I simply haven't been irritated enough to bother setting it up.

So even though we disagree about how desireable or even valuable cliff explosives are, we can't reasonably call them essential.

These guys are pretending to not understand why changing a system that worked well for 8 years is so unpopular. They are just trolling and/or white knighting and not worth the time. Ultimately we know it is a bad design choice and that's all that matters. I've seen many such criticisms. of the Cliff Explosives change. It is bad.

Hey, let's not assume bad faith, okay? I believe you and the others who don't like the change are arguing in good faith, even though we disagree pretty strongly. Nobody's pretending here.

[HadesSupreme]

Here's where I disagree. I flew my ship unmanned to Aquilo and back last night in preparation for starting there, and I have yet to build a single cliff explosive. It's not that I'm doing some self-imposed challenge, either. I simply haven't been irritated enough to bother setting it up.

So even though we disagree about how desireable or even valuable cliff explosives are, we can't reasonably call them essential.

It's essential enough to be blue science in the base game. That's the start of the midgame. Non-essential techs are purple and yellow science in base game and that's where the tech tree splits and gives you the choice of which path to take first (arguably military tech also falls into this category).

People want to build big factories. Cliffs get in the way of this. It's that simple. Especially people who play with increased tech costs.

In any case you don't have an argument against cliff explosives being blue tech in both space age and vanilla, you only have a "nuh uh" when people say they really want cliff tech. Which is not at all persuasive.