Ban quality modules from asteroid crushers

[Meddleman]

@CyberCider/OP

If you like the game to be more difficult for you, make it more duifficult FOR YOU. Try to leave everybody else out of your personal preferences, thank you very much.

+1

Refocusing to OP's original topic, despite by cheese, by oversight or by unintended emergent gameplay or not, the game does not actually force anyone to put quality modules into an asteroid crusher nor does it force you to use a Space Casino.

On the contrary, the emergent understanding to truly leverage the mechanics such as fluid voiding, space casino, infinite free LDS are part of a laundry list of cheese that require such a deep intrinsic knowhow of the game and its edgecases.
Heck, they could even be considered on par with the upgrade to Biolabs/Big Drills/Biolabs and their overly better stats vs. their vanilla counterparts.

Fixing these issues would cause the devs extra work, not to mention the community backlash. The best solution is a compromise, and one that has existed far longer, especially when it regards game balance.

Make a mod.

[AlexRAwesome]

Its space age

We get research productivity from space

Its ok if space is strong

[Lalaith]

On the contrary, the emergent understanding to truly leverage the mechanics such as fluid voiding, space casino, infinite free LDS are part of a laundry list of cheese that require such a deep intrinsic knowhow of the game and its edgecases.

I totally agree. This also gives more variety in how you get to high quality products. I already have to do upcycling a bunch of times, I don't see why that should have to be the solution in ALL cases. In return for having quality in crushers we get all this sweet extra complexity and interesting chains.

Removing the ability to have quality in crushers would also set a strange precedent, in that every other machine with slots (save for beacons which are special) takes quality, even if it does nothing. I don't think it'd be good API, in a sense, to disallow it in these circumstances.

[Stargateur]

I think the real problem is that an asteroid chunk can give back a asteroid chunk.

If you like the game to be more difficult for you, make it more duifficult FOR YOU. Try to leave everybody else out of your personal preferences, thank you very much.

what ? you really need this sort of exploit to have working ship ?

Removing the ability to have quality in crushers would also set a strange precedent, in that every other machine with slots (save for beacons which are special) takes quality, even if it does nothing. I don't think it'd be good API, in a sense, to disallow it in these circumstances.

Did you hear about productivity module ?

[mmmPI]

I think the real problem is that an asteroid chunk can give back a asteroid chunk.

I think it's not a problem because it leads to many different way player can handle it, and i appreciate this.

what ? you really need this sort of exploit to have working ship ?

It's not an exploit, it's not needed, it's just nice to have the ability to do so, if you dont want to use them, you don't have to.

Did you hear about productivity module ?

What do you mean ? those would be the worst module to put in crushers imo. They have restriction of placement that depend on the recipe not on the machine.

[CyberCider]

I totally agree. This also gives more variety in how you get to high quality products. I already have to do upcycling a bunch of times, I don't see why that should have to be the solution in ALL cases. In return for having quality in crushers we get all this sweet extra complexity and interesting chains.

My whole problem with this is its total lack of complexity. Upcycling is definitely on the more “accessible” side of complexity, as stated by the devs themselves when they announced quality, but asteroid rerolling is somehow beneath even this bare minimum. Interesting chains? What chains? A space quality ship takes literally no inputs. No logistics, no scaling of the rest of the factory, nothing is required but the copy-pasting of asteroid crushers. The infrastructure that processes the legendary ores is allowed to use productivity and speed, which lets it be absolutely tiny. And variety? This trick eliminates variety by producing every resource at once.

Don’t get me wrong, I have nothing against emergent gameplay and alternative paths. I don’t dislike asteroid rerolling because it’s different, I dislike it because it’s simply too good for how incredibly simple and easy it is. It overshadows other, more interesting tactics and is overall detrimental to the quality (lol) of the game.

Removing the ability to have quality in crushers would also set a strange precedent, in that every other machine with slots (save for beacons which are special) takes quality, even if it does nothing. I don't think it'd be good API, in a sense, to disallow it in these circumstances.

This would definitely be implemented by disallowing quality modules in the recipes, not the machine. Perhaps I should have worded it more clearly.

[mmmPI]

Don’t get me wrong, I have nothing against emergent gameplay and alternative paths. I don’t dislike asteroid rerolling because it’s different, I dislike it because it’s simply too good for how incredibly simple and easy it is. It overshadows other, more interesting tactics and is overall detrimental to the quality (lol) of the game.

I don't see it as overshadowing, but rather completing, when looking at what people build and post on the internet, there are plenty of posts that are quality with no relation to asteroids. It helps that it's available quite late in the game, by a time where many players already have used quality.

This would definitely be implemented by disallowing quality modules in the recipes, not the machine. Perhaps I should have worded it more clearly.

That would result in the same consequence no ?
Why can't i use quality for my crusher ? because other players used it to make legendary asteroid ? seem a pretty lame reason to me. When you will be able to upcycle the iron ore and copper ore instead of the asteroid will it change anything ?

I'm not convinced.

[CyberCider]

That would result in the same consequence no ?
Why can't i use quality for my crusher ? because other players used it to make legendary asteroid ? seem a pretty lame reason to me. When you will be able to upcycle the iron ore and copper ore instead of the asteroid will it change anything ?

I'm not convinced.

Unlike asteroid rolling, upcycling ore and plate sucks. And it’s supposed to suck, because it’s really easy to build. People are free to use it, but they accept that because they built something really simple it will be really slow and inefficient. Asteroid rolling, meanwhile, is both simple and efficient and even more than that. It’s simply too good to be in the vanilla game. If people want to have an easier time with the game, they are free to enable the editor or install mods. But it’s simply not appropriate for the “normal” difficulty of the game.

[mmmPI]

Unlike asteroid rolling, upcycling ore and plate sucks. And it’s supposed to suck, because it’s really easy to build. People are free to use it, but they accept that because they built something really simple it will be really slow and inefficient. Asteroid rolling, meanwhile, is both simple and efficient and even more than that. It’s simply too good to be in the vanilla game. If people want to have an easier time with the game, they are free to enable the editor or install mods. But it’s simply not appropriate for the “normal” difficulty of the game.

Yeah but your point in the first post is that it is source of infinite quality ore that's easily scalable, so i think the suggestion is not good, because it will still be possible to have infinite quality ore easily scalable.

For the scalabality, you can always duplicate platforms, but it cost quite a bit of UPS compares to infinite ressources from Vulcanus so it's not that good overall, it's not overshadowing anything, it has different applications.

I don't find it much simpler than upcycling plate and ore which appears more common, on the contrary , it's quite the advanced technique that feel like a reward for the players that invest a lot in their platform to give them aonother purpose than just transporting material. Quality rolling is another step beyond generating ressource on platforms.

I dislike it

I think this is more correct than saying the difficulty is not appropriate for the base game , you can just not use it as it's very easy to avoid, not like it's forced on you on every game, but you can use a mod to make the game more to your personnal taste imo instead of asking something be removed because you don't like it.

[Stargateur]

I backed factorio and pretty much play it since forever it's exist, the dev changed the game countless of time, "emergent gameplay" I can't even understand the logic where you disallow change cause of this, like, space age is clearly a beta, new way will emerge and old one will die. I just don't get it, do you think factorio is a darksoul like ? Speed runner cry cause they changed achievement, and now peoples cry because someone ask to nerf OP tactic that seems a lot of people is abusing. Having difference way to achieve something is cool but not when it's completely op compared to other way. see the sub forum name, BALANCING. Either you don't agree it's too strong and doesn't need to be nerfed but here you look like you all agree it's OP and try to avoid this talk by saying "it's emergent gameplay".

When something is OP or broken fix it period. If we listen people like you who never want change or fix factorio would still have ugly graphic, boring science, no space age, no good api for modding. If you don't want any change pick your factorio version and never update.

PS: Sorry I will not answer, I made my proposition and my points and I feel you are manipulating the fact in everyone of your post.

[mmmPI]

I can't even understand the logic where you disallow change cause of this, like, space age is clearly a beta, new way will emerge and old one will die. I just don't get it, do you think factorio is a darksoul like ? Speed runner cry cause they changed achievement, and now peoples cry because someone ask to nerf OP tactic that seems a lot of people is abusing.

It's not about crying, it's about pointing the facts, there would still be source of infinite quality materials from space if you remove the ability to use quality modules in crushers, it could just cause people to potentially reuse a Nauvis upcycling plate blueprint on space. It's not opposition to change for the sake of it, but when the proposed changed doesn't seem to address the reason it's advocated for, it's the point of the discussion to have the possibility to mention it, because it can lead to more elaborate proposal that do not have the same shortcomings of individual proposal.

Having difference way to achieve something is cool but not when it's completely op compared to other way. see the sub forum name, BALANCING. Either you don't agree it's too strong or doesn't need to be nerfed but here you look like you all agree it's OP and try to avoid this talk by saying "it's emergent gameplay".

Seem like players disagree with the proposal for different reasons.

When something is OP or broken fix it period. If we listen people like you who never want change or fix factorio would still have ugly graphic, boring science, no space age, no good api for modding. If you don't want any change pick your factorio version and never update.

If it's not broken don't fix it, wether something is "op" is subjective. Unlike the balance of things that are the same for all players, here it's a decision to use or not, the players that think it's broken don't have to go force it upon themselves.

[CyberCider]

Yeah but your point in the first post is that it is source of infinite quality ore that's easily scalable, so i think the suggestion is not good, because it will still be possible to have infinite quality ore easily scalable.

For the scalabality, you can always duplicate platforms, but it cost quite a bit of UPS compares to infinite ressources from Vulcanus so it's not that good overall, it's not overshadowing anything, it has different applications.

I don't find it much simpler than upcycling plate and ore which appears more common, on the contrary , it's quite the advanced technique that feel like a reward for the players that invest a lot in their platform to give them aonother purpose than just transporting material. Quality rolling is another step beyond generating ressource on platform

Ore/plate upcycling is not as easy to scale as asteroids, because it’s much slower. A lot slower, really. That’s all there is to it, the raw output numbers. They’re both roughly equally easy to build, except one of them has appropriate power for its complexity level. That’s

Edit: This unfinished message got sent by mistake while I was still writing it. Now, why can’t I delete it? The delete button is simply gone. If any mods see this, could you please delete this message for me? Thank you.

[mmmPI]

Ore/plate upcycling is not as easy to scale as asteroids, because it’s much slower. A lot slower, really. That’s all there is to it, the raw output numbers. They’re both roughly equally easy to build, except one of them has appropriate power for its complexity level. That’s

That's ???? x)

I agree it's much slower, but to me it doesn't change the "difficulty" it would be potentially the same blueprint as in Nauvis, a duplicate setup, the same "puzzle", ( not like in vulcanus where the infinite ressource require lava) space they require dealing with asteroids in a different way that is more rewarding than in Nauvis. It's available later too and optionnal.

[CyberCider]

Yeah but your point in the first post is that it is source of infinite quality ore that's easily scalable, so i think the suggestion is not good, because it will still be possible to have infinite quality ore easily scalable.

For the scalabality, you can always duplicate platforms, but it cost quite a bit of UPS compares to infinite ressources from Vulcanus so it's not that good overall, it's not overshadowing anything, it has different applications.

I don't find it much simpler than upcycling plate and ore which appears more common, on the contrary , it's quite the advanced technique that feel like a reward for the players that invest a lot in their platform to give them aonother purpose than just transporting material. Quality rolling is another step beyond generating ressource on platform

Ore/plate upcycling is not as easy to scale as asteroids, because it’s much slower. A lot slower, really. That’s all there is to it, the raw output numbers. They’re both roughly equally easy to build, except one of them has appropriate power for its complexity level. That’s what makes one balanced, and the other not.

you can just not use it as it's very easy to avoid, not like it's forced on you on every game, but you can use a mod to make the game more to your personnal taste imo instead of asking something be removed because you don't like it.

Let me ask you a question: Why can’t you be the one to use a mod? Mods are the place where such things belong. Unusual things that are considered cool or interesting, but ultimately don’t belong in the base game because they’re poorly balanced once you look past their surface. If asteroid quality rolling were removed from the game, people who find the game too hard without it would simply install mods and continue to play how they want. The game would be balanced and therefore overall better, but nobody would really lose anything. That sounds like a win-win situation to me.

Today you can find a mod to make any part of the game easier. But should every single one of these mods be added to the base game? I think you would agree that the answer is no. I think asteroid quality rolling is on the same level as Bob’s inserters, nuclear bots and infinity chests, and I think it should go into the same category as all of these things: Not the base game.

[mmmPI]

Let me ask you a question: Why can’t you be the one to use a mod?

I am ! I even make some ! Mods are a very good thing ! I use some to make the game harder though x)

Mods are the place where such things belong. Unusual things that are considered cool or interesting, but ultimately don’t belong in the base game because they’re poorly balanced once you look past their surface. If asteroid quality rolling were removed from the game, people who find the game too hard without it would simply install mods and continue to play how they want. The game would be balanced and therefore overall better, but nobody would really lose anything. That sounds like a win-win situation to me.

Do you want recommandations for mod that makes the game harder ? Removing an option for everyone when you already not using it because you think it's too easy doesn't sound like a win win situation for the players who uses it because they like it.

Today you can find a mod to make any part of the game easier. But should every single one of these mods be added to the base game? I think you would agree that the answer is no. I think asteroid quality rolling is on the same level as Bob’s inserters, nuclear bots and infinity chests, and I think it should go into the same category as all of these things: Not the base game.

And i believe the same for mods that makes some parts redundants, or tedious