Ability for Inserters to downgrade quality

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porgalorian
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Ability for Inserters to downgrade quality

Post by porgalorian »

I know quality is a very talked about mechanic, and similar solutions like allowing assembly machines to accept mixed quality or buffer all qualities have been discussed. I think those both have flaws and exploits that don't make them ideal. Personally I think the core of the quality system is really good, but it could use some quality of life improvements. Allowing inserters to pick up higher quality versions of items and automatically downgrade their quality to either a set level or the quality setting of the machine they are inserting into would make it easier for players to dabble with quality (like they can the other modules) while also making quality more generally useful.

How this would work:
  • It could be a checkbox on each inserter that when clicked allowed it to pickup and downgrade items to some specified level, or just automatically based on the machine it's set to insert into.
  • It could just be implicit behavior when an inserter is configured with a filter of higher quality items into a machine of a lower quality.
  • Ideally I would prefer if this was just innate behavior of inserters, but with 2.0 out so long adding it as the default behavior would brake a fair few factories.


Some of the issues I think this change would address.
  • 1. Quality is punishing to experiment with. The other modules have minimal side effects: efficiency has none, and speed and productivity mainly just affect power draw, which if that becomes an issue can usually be reverted to restore the factory to the pre-module state. Quality however doesn't work that way. If Quality items build up, they can cause a partial or complete shutdown of the factory. If a player decides they no longer want use quality, they need to go through and completely filter out all quality items previously produced. Not only would allowing inserters to downgrade quality make it easier for a player to swap out modules, but it will also prevent the buildup and shutdowns caused by quality.

    2. Uncommon and rare qualities aren't generally useful. Quality is usually only situationaly useful, you craft some higher quality solar panels or player gear, but those are low volume, manually consumed items. But for general items like science packs and intermediate goods quality is just an unappealing option. Both a production module and a quality module will effectively produce a free science pack. But A level 1 production module will produce a free pack 4% of the time, while a level 1 quality module will produce a 2x capacity pack 1% of the time. The benefit with quality is that you can go to the upstream assemblies and add quality there too, even if they aren't intermediate items like walls and electric furnaces. But because mixed quality could lead to a factory shutdown, you can't just add modules into an existing factory, you need to completely redesign every downstream assembly line to account for quality and add contingency to destroy excess quality goods which seems counter to an engineers goals of increasing science output. If inserters could downgrade the quality of items to fit the machine they were inserting into, this wouldn't be an issue, an engineer could put their quality machines at the front of assembly line to have first dibs on quality components, with lower quality machines towards the back to just pickup the excess as if it was a lower quality. The way quality is now, uncommon and rare quality are almost too much hassle for what they give and serve as just stepping stones to epic and legendary quality items in recycle loops and space platform casinos. But by solving the issue of quality back-pressure it opens up uncommon and rare qualities to have a place in the factory. It turns quality from a late endgame mechanic into one that can be engaged with at scale during any stage.
Some other benefits
  • It's not a fundamental change to quality. It doesn't really invalidate the core mechanic of quality, and wouldn't really be a big buff to quality either. Factories would still only be able to benefit from quality up to the lowest common denominator, but instead of shutting down they would simply partially lose some of the benefits of quality. It's a bit funny to think how converting a rare piercing round into an uncommon one because you can't produce rare grenades as quickly as you can piercing rounds is considered a buff, but when the alternative is to recycle loop it into oblivion, Then at least this way you still are able to extract some value out the manufacturing process.
  • Interesting alternative factory designs. While addressing back pressure makes it easier to use quality, I still think making assembly lines with quality in mind would make things interesting. For starters you would want to order your assemblers such that the ones set to the highest quality have first pick of incoming ingredients. Additionally it would change the way I design some lines. Production Science requires 30 rails. That's alot, and to avoid the challenges that come with transporting those rails on a bus to the production science assembly machines, I typically just manufacture the rails in assemblers right next to the science assemblers. But with quality it opens a new challenge of manufacturing the rails and then transporting them along the different quality lines. Without the hassle of backups I think these designs would be more worth exploring. This is obviously a benefit with the core of the quality system and not just this request, but I think this change would open up the areas where quality makes sense.
  • It doesn't invalidate recycle loops/space casinos or other factory designs. Quality today serves an endgame grind, this change wouldn't invalidate that, you would still make the recycler loops in the same way, filtering higher quality items to be forwarded to higher quality machines in the quest for legendary gear. This change is focused more on the lower end of the quality spectrum, when the goal isn't legendary gear, but just higher quality science. For when you happen to make more rare productivity modules than you do rare rails for productivity science because their quality chain is more robust and you didn't worry about making quality stone.

Why I think some of the other solutions are inadequate
  • Mixed Quality: This has issues when you factor in productivity of a assembly machine, as you could just produce a bunch of low quality items, build up productivity progress, and only then insert in high quality inputs to get double the high value output. This wouldn't have that problem, because assemblers would still have a set quality, and the items would be down leveled to that quality, in effect the quality difference would be wasted.
  • Assemblers have slots for all quality levels This doesn't actually address the backups that I believe is the biggest barrier to using quality at the lower levels. This just adds additional buffer space, which doesn't help uneven production. If your making more high quality productivity modules than you are rails, adding different buffers isn't going to fix that.
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Re: Ability for Inserters to downgrade quality

Post by computeraddict »

porgalorian wrote: Sun Jun 01, 2025 7:15 am would make it easier for players to dabble with quality (like they can the other modules)
You can just filter the output inserters on your first quality machines to shove higher quality outputs into a box for later consideration.

Tbqh I think most of your proposal would make quality harder to use, as it would necessitate filtering items before sending them past assembling machines to accomplish the current behavior.
porgalorian
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Re: Ability for Inserters to downgrade quality

Post by porgalorian »

You can just filter the output inserters on your first quality machines to shove higher quality outputs into a box for later consideration.
That's not really a solution. It's kind of naive to assume that storing your excess uncommon grenades for future use will ever actually end up being useful. If you have an unbalanced supply of science inputs at varying quality, storing the excess only works as long as you quit playing the game before the storage gets full. And at that point you might as well recycle loop it into oblivion. Quality is already just an objectively worse alternative to production, and destroying or ignoring product makes it even more generally useless. As it stands today quality effectively gives you negative productivity, and that forces the whole feature into this really niche set of circumstances.

Just storing excess would be like balancing heavy oil production by just adding a bunch of storage tanks and hoping you quit the game before they get full, It's not actually fixing the issue of unbalanced production, at some point you need to hook up heavy oil processing to turn the excess into light oil. This would be similar, instead of turning heavy oil into light oil you would be turning a gear into a gear, just of a lower quality.

I feel like quality could be a great feature if it just played nicer with the factory, but as it stands its this niche mechanic that has no place in the general flow of the factory. It's just an objectively worse version of productivity and I feel like it doesn't have to be. The mechanic could be more than just a space casino gimmick. Maybe it's fine as gimmick mechanic that can be mostly ignored, but factorio usually has a certain level of polish and interlocking systems that just work, and quality just seems like an outlier that doesn't work with the rest.
Tbqh I think most of your proposal would make quality harder to use, as it would necessitate filtering items before sending them past assembling machines to accomplish the current behavior.
I don't think the current default behavior needs to be changed. By default the inserters could just match the priority of the machine they are adding into. Adding the option to allow inserters to pickup higher quality items doesn't invalidate the default behavior because it's an option.
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Re: Ability for Inserters to downgrade quality

Post by Monochrome »

1. Quality is punishing to experiment with. [...] If Quality items build up, they can cause a partial or complete shutdown of the factory. If a player decides they no longer want use quality, they need to go through and completely filter out all quality items previously produced. [...]
Hard agree with this.

I've been thinking that - very similar to your idea - it would be very useful to allow assemblers (and other buildings) to accept higher-quality ingredients, treating them as the lower-quality ingredients needed by the current recipe.

I think this would be slightly better than having such a toggle on the inserters, because oftentimes assemblers are fed by more than one inserter. But either idea would be a good addition :)
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Re: Ability for Inserters to downgrade quality

Post by wobbycarly »

Monochrome wrote: Mon Jun 02, 2025 7:56 am
1. Quality is punishing to experiment with. [...] If Quality items build up, they can cause a partial or complete shutdown of the factory. If a player decides they no longer want use quality, they need to go through and completely filter out all quality items previously produced. [...]
Hard agree with this.

I've been thinking that - very similar to your idea - it would be very useful to allow assemblers (and other buildings) to accept higher-quality ingredients, treating them as the lower-quality ingredients needed by the current recipe.

I think this would be slightly better than having such a toggle on the inserters, because oftentimes assemblers are fed by more than one inserter. But either idea would be a good addition :)
Until you accidentally send all your good quality stuff down the assembly line, and they get eaten by an assembler making a lower quality item :o
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Re: Ability for Inserters to downgrade quality

Post by aka13 »

Monochrome wrote: Mon Jun 02, 2025 7:56 am
1. Quality is punishing to experiment with. [...] If Quality items build up, they can cause a partial or complete shutdown of the factory. If a player decides they no longer want use quality, they need to go through and completely filter out all quality items previously produced. [...]
Hard agree with this.

I've been thinking that - very similar to your idea - it would be very useful to allow assemblers (and other buildings) to accept higher-quality ingredients, treating them as the lower-quality ingredients needed by the current recipe.

I think this would be slightly better than having such a toggle on the inserters, because oftentimes assemblers are fed by more than one inserter. But either idea would be a good addition :)
+1
Pony/Furfag avatar? Opinion discarded.
porgalorian
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Re: Ability for Inserters to downgrade quality

Post by porgalorian »

I've been thinking that - very similar to your idea - it would be very useful to allow assemblers (and other buildings) to accept higher-quality ingredients, treating them as the lower-quality ingredients needed by the current recipe.
Something Like that would also work, I picked inserters because they already have the interface to filter inputs by quality, and so I thought it would be somewhat intuitive to allow users to specify which quality levels they are actually willing to eat. It would also be configurable with combinators out of the box. And that would mostly mean that without a filter they would work exactly how they do currently. I also imagine this would have minimal impact on current factories, as since there is no point in setting an inserter to a higher quality when inserting into a machine, I doubt many factories have that set and so my assumption is that adding this as a feature would be mostly none breaking. But I wouldn't be opposed to it being at the machine level either, it achieves the same goal, in many ways I like it more because my style of using combinators is to generally control inserters, by putting the setting in machines then it makes it easier for me to copy and paste the setting between the machines on an assembly line. It would also mean there is less configuring that needs to be done, as I typically have more inserters than I do machines.
Until you accidentally send all your good quality stuff down the assembly line, and they get eaten by an assembler making a lower quality item :o
I think the only way for this to work post 2.0 is if it is an optional feature. People have already built their factories with the assumptions that machines/inserters wouldn't automatically downgrade. There are several situations where you don't want assemblers to eat higher quality components. Recycle loops give a perfectly balanced supply of ingredients to demand of product (or at least with some buffer and the law of large numbers they do). So you definitely wouldn't want your uncommon assembly machines taking the rare ingredients out of a quality upscycle. And since recycle loops are the sanctioned and main way people interact with quality today, breaking those by making it default behavior to downgrade would be a non-starter.

While it might be a bit of a pain to configure your inserters/machines to allow for downgrading, I think it's better than the current status quo of quality just not being generally useful in situations where you have an unbalanced supply to demand ratio. The problem of it shutting down your factory is still there by default, but at least it gives the engineer the tools to actually address the issue.
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