Legendary Yumako & Jelly Nut Seeds should grow legendary plants

[Shulmeister]

It's still advocating for a system that solve literally 0 problems.

true, recent suggestion unlike OP propose to implement a more complex system that current one, to make it easier to scale legendary production.

It misses the point, not only because it wouldn't work but also because what most people requested on this thread are way to make the game easier without realizing they advocate for broken systems, the proposition introduces new "traps" that noob can fall into, to adress scaling legendary production, which isn't necessary if you understand how to Gleba.

No-one need easier scaling of legendary production on Gleba because it makes no sense.

If you think you do need an easier way to scale your legendary production on Gleba and you propose making the game more complicated for those who have trouble already while acting superior you're a real idiot to me. You are the one who actually struggle in the game ( to have quality ) and thus most likely one for which a more complicated system wouldn't be a good idea in the first place.

[crimsonarmy]

It's still advocating for a system that solve literally 0 problems.

While I wouldn't say zero problems, now that I look back at the recent proposals it has become quite a complicated system to partially solve a small problem.

I think my initial motivation to support this idea came from wanting a way to upgrade the quality of the initial ingredients everywhere and make quality items always have a use.

To explain why this shouldn't be changed:
1. Planet specific quality items do not have an efficient way to become legendary; you just need to throw capacity at it. This makes developing large industry on a planet that you want the legendary resource from needed to get it in large quantities.
2. Legendary bioflux is one of the most powerful resources in the game. Making it easier to get in large quantities, even if only slightly, is a problem.
3. The play pattern this would make is minimal depth for the complexity (complicated but not very interesting) due to how late into the game this comes up. If you want to play around with juggling different qualities try the Maraxsis mod which integrates this play pattern far better than it would here.

I hope this serves to explain simply why this suggestion is counterproductive.

[mmmPI]

It's still advocating for a system that solve literally 0 problems.

While I wouldn't say zero problems, now that I look back at the recent proposals it has become quite a complicated system to partially solve a small problem.

I think my initial motivation to support this idea came from wanting a way to upgrade the quality of the initial ingredients everywhere and make quality items always have a use.

To explain why this shouldn't be changed:
1. Planet specific quality items do not have an efficient way to become legendary; you just need to throw capacity at it. This makes developing large industry on a planet that you want the legendary resource from needed to get it in large quantities.
2. Legendary bioflux is one of the most powerful resources in the game. Making it easier to get in large quantities, even if only slightly, is a problem.
3. The play pattern this would make is minimal depth for the complexity (complicated but not very interesting) due to how late into the game this comes up. If you want to play around with juggling different qualities try the Maraxsis mod which integrates this play pattern far better than it would here.

I hope this serves to explain simply why this suggestion is counterproductive.

Don't get me wrong, i wish quality seeds would serve a purpose instead of being a risk. Currently if you try to do quality on Gleba by using quality module in the processing of fruits, you will end up with quality seed. If you don't plant them, you run the risk of not having enough regular seed. But if you plant them all you will overflow with seeds, so that's a "challenge" that i feel make sense. It's not imposed on players that do not try quality, but it's like a "trap" or a "side-obstacle", it's not super hard to deal with once you get it, but it creates a "eureka" moment, when you realize it. I feel it's good gameplay.

Now from the perspective of someone who value quality seeds for plant that i consume later in real life, i believe something could be done in game for the legendary seeds, but to me it's more in the realm of suggestions, or even "mods" because that's kind of a "me" thing.

When regarding stricly balancing i feel that Gleba is already the planet players complain/struggle the most with; and any change to the game that would introduce "more complexity" in Gleba would probably be "badly received". Even worse if the aim is only to make "easier" something "reserved for those that wants to tackle hard problems". That would be detrimental to the gameplay value imo.

I'm still interested in proposition that would make quality seed "valuable", i feel the speed of growth for trees would work well because there's less drawbacks i can see, it forces player to find a way to "stop" their agricultural tower if they haven't already, that's it. I don't think it's a big deal because that can be done (also) without circuits, just with a lane backing up. So i feel for "balancing" it would be the more on point from those i read so far.

If you think you do need an easier way to scale your legendary production on Gleba and you propose making the game more complicated for those who have trouble already while acting superior you're a real idiot to me. You are the one who actually struggle in the game ( to have quality ) and thus most likely one for which a more complicated system wouldn't be a good idea in the first place.

Please refrain from personnal attacks, keeps them in private message like i told you last time i felt you were only trolling

No-one need easier scaling of legendary production on Gleba because it makes no sense.

I feel like some players could use and easier way into quality or gleba or both regarding balancing. And i feel like quality on Gleba make sense, it's infinite ressources, and you don't always need the science.

But I don't feel like "easy scaling" would be good on Gleba BECAUSE it's infinite ressources. Any build that "works" can be copy pasted around some fertile land, that's like the seablock end game, where some blueprints are like "infinity chest but bigger" / with a little terrain restriction easily overcome with bots.

That's the only nuances i would add to your reformulation

[crimsonarmy]

I'm still interested in proposition that would make quality seed "valuable", i feel the speed of growth for trees would work well because there's less drawbacks i can see, it forces player to find a way to "stop" their agricultural tower if they haven't already, that's it. I don't think it's a big deal because that can be done (also) without circuits, just with a lane backing up. So i feel for "balancing" it would be the more on point from those i read so far.

A similar issue also exists on Fulgora with quality holmium ore being only a hassle and nothing else. Both of these should probably be in suggestions rather than balancing, but depending on the solution who knows?

[mmmPI]

I'm still interested in proposition that would make quality seed "valuable", i feel the speed of growth for trees would work well because there's less drawbacks i can see, it forces player to find a way to "stop" their agricultural tower if they haven't already, that's it. I don't think it's a big deal because that can be done (also) without circuits, just with a lane backing up. So i feel for "balancing" it would be the more on point from those i read so far.

A similar issue also exists on Fulgora with quality holmium ore being only a hassle and nothing else. Both of these should probably be in suggestions rather than balancing, but depending on the solution who knows?

i don't see any proposition here, nor any relation with Fulgora, there's no solution needed when there's no problem x) thank you

[crimsonarmy]

I'm still interested in proposition that would make quality seed "valuable", i feel the speed of growth for trees would work well because there's less drawbacks i can see, it forces player to find a way to "stop" their agricultural tower if they haven't already, that's it. I don't think it's a big deal because that can be done (also) without circuits, just with a lane backing up. So i feel for "balancing" it would be the more on point from those i read so far.

A similar issue also exists on Fulgora with quality holmium ore being only a hassle and nothing else. Both of these should probably be in suggestions rather than balancing, but depending on the solution who knows?

i don't see any proposition here, nor any relation with Fulgora, there's no solution needed when there's no problem x) thank you

Both quality seeds and quality holmium ore feel like they "should" do something better than normal ones but don't. I don't really have a proposition, just pointing out similarities.

[mmmPI]

Both quality seeds and quality holmium ore feel like they "should" do something better than normal ones but don't. I don't really have a proposition, just pointing out similarities.

Hey i just gave my opinion in response, i had perfectly understood your point, maybe what i meant was unclear, here is another way to say :

if the similarities are that "some players feel like something should be changed" that's too wide to make it a relevant similarity to me, because that could pretty much be applied to all suggestions & balancing, i feel those are just diferent topics and there's plenty others topics where players thought quality should do something different, in that logic if each and every single of them could be brought up as "similar" that would create a lot of bloat in every threads. I feel it's "off-topic" and to be avoided particularly if there's no useful follow-up to make sense of the highlight.

On my view the topics are similar because in both case they are not a problem, the follow-up being , thus in both case the same non-solution can apply, "thank you" that was meant to highlight that the demonstration was complete ( there's no more meaningful things to add we've reached the end of the reasonning) and to say thank you for listening.

[crimsonarmy]

Both quality seeds and quality holmium ore feel like they "should" do something better than normal ones but don't. I don't really have a proposition, just pointing out similarities.

Hey i just gave my opinion in response, i had perfectly understood your point, maybe what i meant was unclear, here is another way to say :

if the similarities are that "some players feel like something should be changed" that's too wide to make it a relevant similarity to me, because that could pretty much be applied to all suggestions & balancing, i feel those are just diferent topics and there's plenty others topics where players thought quality should do something different, in that logic if each and every single of them could be brought up as "similar" that would create a lot of bloat in every threads. I feel it's "off-topic" and to be avoided particularly if there's no useful follow-up to make sense of the highlight.

On my view the topics are similar because in both case they are not a problem, the follow-up being , thus in both case the same non-solution can apply, "thank you" that was meant to highlight that the demonstration was complete ( there's no more meaningful things to add we've reached the end of the reasonning) and to say thank you for listening.

Thanks for the clarification.

[Tertius]

Seeing this topic popping up to the front continuously, I feel I can give my opinion as well at last instead of ignoring it all the time.

One of the most basic and core game mechanics about quality is to start every production chain with normal resources. No original resource you mine is available with higher quality. Ore is normal. Stone is normal. Asteroid chunks are normal. Fluids are normal. Scrap is normal. Biter eggs are normal. And fruits are normal, too.

The game is painstakingly designed in a way you can never directly create legendary items without previously upcycle a normal item for this legendary item. Or in general, you can never directly create a higher quality item without upcycling a lower quality item for it. When you have recipes to create "more of the same item", for example bacteria and pentapod eggs, there is always an additional ingredient you have to upcycle along with the item.

Every single legendary item you create is crafted from a chain of upcycled ingredients, always started with normal quality. There is not a single production chain where you continuously create legendary items from legendary items without a supply of normal items. You cannot proliferate legendary items on their own without ever needing normal items again. This is true for every ingredient as well.

There's no reason to break that design principle. If you feel it's too tedious to build the normal-to-legendary chain on Gleba with its fruits, I propose you make suggestions for improving that chain. But I don't see a reason to break that chain.

[eugenekay]

There is not a single production chain where you continuously create legendary items from legendary items without a supply of normal items.

Yes, you do need some Upgraded materials initially no matter what. However, remember that Low Density Structures (Legendary) recycle into:

• Copper Plates (Legendary)
• Steel Plates (Legendary)
• Plastic Bar (Legendary)

With a sufficiently high Low Density Structure Productivity Bonus this Recycling step becomes essentially Plastic-Neutral (you lose a few % to Recycler odds being random, so a little bit of extra Plastic is needed to run the mechanism forever). But the Iron/Copper can be obtained in Liquid format from Lava in infinite quantities, which really does not fit with your claim here… Yes, I remember that a piece of (any quality) Calcite is required for the Melting recipe; that is not the bottleneck to creating Legendary items in this process.

Good Luck!

[crimsonarmy]

There is not a single production chain where you continuously create legendary items from legendary items without a supply of normal items.

Yes, you do need some Upgraded materials initially no matter what. However, remember that Low Density Structures (Legendary) recycle into:

• Copper Plates (Legendary)
• Steel Plates (Legendary)
• Plastic Bar (Legendary)

With a sufficiently high Low Density Structure Productivity Bonus this Recycling step becomes essentially Plastic-Neutral (you lose a few % to Recycler odds being random, so a little bit of extra Plastic is needed to run the mechanism forever). But the Iron/Copper can be obtained in Liquid format from Lava in infinite quantities, which really does not fit with your claim here… Yes, I remember that a piece of (any quality) Calcite is required for the Melting recipe; that is not the bottleneck to creating Legendary items in this process.

Good Luck!

LDS shuffle is just upcycling with 100% efficiency: you take in molten copper and iron (normal quality as all fluids are) and you get out legendary copper and steel. "Should a 100% efficient arbitrary number of steps quality upcycler exist in the game?" is a different question. The issue being described here (if I understand correctly) is that once Gleba uses higher quality seeds it gets higher quality starting materials for "free."

[mmmPI]

There is not a single production chain where you continuously create legendary items from legendary items without a supply of normal items.

Yes, I remember that a piece of (any quality) Calcite is required for the Melting recipe; that is not the bottleneck to creating Legendary items in this process.

If you are going to use "legendary calcite" to disproove previous statement, that may very well be the bottleneck. Otherwise it's much more comon to use "normal" calcite, so really i think Tertius is correct there, you need an input of 'normal quality item', the fluids or the calcite. You can get infinite amount of calcite from space, but it still need to come from somewhere, unlike what would happen in Gleba if you could use legendary seed for legendary fruits and all the subsequent chain. This is because seeds unlike calcite are a product of the processing of fruits, it's in closed loop, you wouldn't need to use anything else than "legendary seed and fruits".

LDS shuffle is just upcycling with 100% efficiency: you take in molten copper and iron (normal quality as all fluids are) and you get out legendary copper and steel. "Should a 100% efficient arbitrary number of steps quality upcycler exist in the game?" is a different question. The issue being described here (if I understand correctly) is that once Gleba uses higher quality seeds it gets higher quality starting materials for "free."

This is actually a bad example to me, because you need calcite for the molten copper and iron if you use that receipe so it's not 100% efficient.

Now all the other receipe on which you can get 400% productivity ( including the other LDS receipe) are all "neutral" and 100% efficient in ressources. You transform "blue circuit" in "legendary blue circuit" for free without additionnal ressources. It cost nothing so there's already in game 100% efficent ways of upcycling.

You can do so on Gleba, no need for calcite, and no need for legendary seeds to do anything different than now.

There were several different issues with the propositions, creating a system where you only use legendary seed and material is one, creating a system where players run out of normal seeds is another one, breaking current system to enforce a more complicated one for a marginal gain in productivity is also an issue imo.