Friday Facts #88 - Combinators

[Peter34]

Very nice and powerful ... we can make some awesomely complex items.

Now if they game just allowed us to have a blueprint set that we could pass between games and an in game binder with pages to store them all in ......

This is indeed something that worries me. Not having to first learn a complex setup, or getting one from the forum here and analyzing until I undertand it, but rather having to re-do such a setup manually in game after game after game. I mean, even if I only play like 6-8 "serious" long games per year (mostly coop MP), it's still a very intimidating chore, having to re-create a complex setup with 30-40 interconnected elements.

So I'm hoping there'll be some long-term storage ability for blueprints, or some kind of pseudo-program structure for these Combinators.

[JamesOFarrell]

Just when i though I had gotten over my Factorio addiction you post this. Bastards!

I can't wait.

[MeduSalem]

But I would suggest the following for the deciders:

The output should be either the input OR a static number of your choice and not restricted to simply "1".

Well, yes you need another multiplier for that, but the gui is complicated already and we wanted to keep things understandable.

I don't think that the GUI for the Deciders is very complicated, in fact it looks much easier than the Smart Inserter GUI because there's only the comparison between two items or item and a static number, as well the output of either the input item and "1".

Wouldn't kill anybody to change the "1"-output-option into a text-field where one can enter any static number one desires.

At least this little Quality of Life improvement would prevent a lot of future threads with people suggesting exactly that, because I know they will be a thing once they realize how ultra complex some of the setups may become otherwise.

Very nice and powerful ... we can make some awesomely complex items.

Now if they game just allowed us to have a blueprint set that we could pass between games and an in game binder with pages to store them all in ......

This is indeed something that worries me. Not having to first learn a complex setup, or getting one from the forum here and analyzing until I undertand it, but rather having to re-do such a setup manually in game after game after game. I mean, even if I only play like 6-8 "serious" long games per year (mostly coop MP), it's still a very intimidating chore, having to re-create a complex setup with 30-40 interconnected elements.

So I'm hoping there'll be some long-term storage ability for blueprints, or some kind of pseudo-program structure for these Combinators.

While it will be for sure a very powerful addition to the game, I also have to say that the practical applications are yet to be determined.

Of course you can create ultra complex stuff, as ridiculous as it gets, but I doubt the usefulness of most contraptions, which is already the case with a lot of creations without a huge wiremess that are otherwise floating around.

I'd say anything that requires more than 5-10 elements to be connected together is already too complex for mass usage and makes me ask myself "Can't this be done in any easier way?".

The point for me is:

Complexity VS Usability VS Maintenance

I hate stuff where either the complexity to do the intial setup is too hardcore, the longterm usability not really given, the maintenance in terms of adding/changing the setup being a complete chore. So eventually I think that the number of applications where above will be in an acceptable equilibrium is limited. So while it offers a lot of amazing possibilities let's not forget all along to stay within a realistic perspective.

That said a Blueprint Archive (a set of blue prints that can be used in any new map you create) would still be fine.

Also I really look forward to the addition/0.12 because we can do probably everything we currently can't do without a huge mess (Steam Backup, Balancing the Oil industry, etc) and more.

[British_Petroleum]

Really cool update. It's like discrete logic. You could save a lot of space and complexity by also introducing a programmable logic/processor unit, where logic functions with memory and time delays could be programmed into one entity with the aid of a nice user interface. Then all those combinators for the rolling sign could be replaced by one entity which would be much easier to debug and for outsiders to understand

[glutamate]

Looks awesome

Hoping that there'll be reason to use these in some scenarios or objective-based maps.

[MF-]

I'd say anything that requires more than 5-10 elements to be connected together is already too complex for mass usage and makes me ask myself "Can't this be done in any easier way?".

I hope that will be possible to do as a mod. For me it seems perfect as it is.

I hate stuff where either the complexity to do the intial setup is too hardcore, the longterm usability not really given, the maintenance in terms of adding/changing the setup being a complete chore. So eventually I think that the number of applications where above will be in an acceptable equilibrium is limited. So while it offers a lot of amazing possibilities let's not forget all along to stay within a realistic perspective.

And love when that happens, since the longterm usability then depends only on how good job I do creating the thing.
So I too hope it all along stays within a realistic perspective.

That said a Blueprint Archive (a set of blue prints that can be used in any new map you create) would still be fine.

That could be a way to go. What would be in such archive? Some kind of "generic solutions"? Will that exist?

because we can do probably everything we currently can't do without a huge mess (Steam Backup, Balancing the Oil industry, etc) and more.

"Steam backup is a huge mess" Why? It all fits under regular wiring pole AFAIK.
Also I very much like the fact that it was possible to do a steam backup setup "as a hack from the inside of the game",
even though its source code AFAIK didn't plan for it.
Sure, a solution that anyone can understand and remember has to exist, hopefully by the 0.12 update.

[MF-]

It looks truly awesome, I like both the chosen style of the logic machines and the inner works.

Aren't the shadows on the screenshots odd?

My take on wiring mess:
What about some kind of a short "one-wire stand" pole for organizing free-lying CCnet cabling?

[wad67]

I already have plans for a 4 bit adder, working on an ALU.
Anyone else keen to build some computers?

If the builder bots can replicate Combinator setups flawlessly I can see some big computers in the works.
Are lamps visible on the map? If not they should be.
(Terminal output using lamps spanning a few screens (1lamp - 1pixel).

[Memphis86]

WTF ...NICE

i need a German Manuale

[MeduSalem]

That could be a way to go. What would be in such archive? Some kind of "generic solutions"? Will that exist?

I imagine the Data Archive to be something like an "uplink" that comes once you have blueprints available. That uplink gives access to the Archive in which you may store whatever blueprints you like or download whatever blueprints you need to this map instance.

So if you happen to use a build quite often then you make a blueprint of that, upload in the Data Archive access point and then in the next map/game you start you will have it available once you researched the specific technology level. So no need to re-invent the wheel from scratch.

Might eventually be used for sharing blueprints with other players too if someone wants to think about more stuff that could be done with that.

"Steam backup is a huge mess" Why? It all fits under regular wiring pole AFAIK.
Also I very much like the fact that it was possible to do a steam backup setup "as a hack from the inside of the game",
even though its source code AFAIK didn't plan for it.
Sure, a solution that anyone can understand and remember has to exist, hopefully by the 0.12 update.

You basically answered that question yourself: "As a hack from inside of the game, even though its source code AFAIK didn't plan for it."

I'm for straight forward solutions, so I don't like hacks, workarounds and other ugly contraptions to emulate a lacking feature.

[Drury]

That could be a way to go. What would be in such archive? Some kind of "generic solutions"? Will that exist?

I imagine the Data Archive to be something like an "uplink" that comes once you have blueprints available. That uplink gives access to the Archive in which you may store whatever blueprints you like or download whatever blueprints you need to this map instance.

So if you happen to use a build quite often then you make a blueprint of that, upload in the Data Archive access point and then in the next map/game you start you will have it available once you researched the specific technology level. So no need to re-invent the wheel from scratch.

Might eventually be used for sharing blueprints with other players too if someone wants to think about more stuff that could be done with that.

Steam workshop would be excellent for this. There can be both mods and blueprints, ready to be downloaded from within the game at any point.

[MeduSalem]

Steam workshop would be excellent for this. There can be both mods and blueprints, ready to be downloaded from within the game at any point.

True. At least for the sharing with other people. But for the people playing offline there should be also something.

[n9103]

There's been a blueprint sharing/saving mod for many months now.
Dunno if it's currently updated, but it's what I keep hearing people complain that they want in-game.

[SWSe]

Although I might be alone with this, I have a few small concerns about the look of the combinators. Those huge mathematical symbols on top of them seem a bit odd to me. You wouldn't put them on a real machine I guess.
Of course it's good to have an overview over what you're constructing, but aesthetically they might not fit into a factory. Should those maybe only be shown when detailed info is on?

Also, the (arithmetic and decider) combinators are pretty big regarding they're not constructing or refining anything, but mostly just comparing values.

Maybe I just have to actually see it ingame.

[Cordylus]

Also, the (arithmetic and decider) combinators are pretty big regarding they're not constructing or refining anything, but mostly just comparing values.

They are big, because they have two inputs and outputs, and they must be easy to connect.

[Drury]

Yeah it kind of looks strange next to other stuff in Factorio. Sticks a bit out of the general artstyle. Nice and visible, though.

Maybe a type of Nixie tube display?



14-segment?



About their size, I find it interesting that they seem to be 1x2 blocks and rotatable - I think it's the first machine in the game to work this way? Gun turrets can't be rotated like that as far as I'm aware.

[Cordylus]

About their size, I find it interesting that they seem to be 1x2 blocks and rotatable - I think it's the first machine in the game to work this way? Gun turrets can't be rotated like that as far as I'm aware.

1x2 and rotatable are also splitters.

[Drury]

Oh, silly me then.

Wonder what's up with those gun turrets...

[Marconos]

There's been a blueprint sharing/saving mod for many months now.
Dunno if it's currently updated, but it's what I keep hearing people complain that they want in-game.

Mods are nice and all, but I like many players in the game see this as a core feature that should be in the base game.

At this point I prefer to mention things that hopefully the devs will see and put into the game.

[piratelord]

Looks nice, but I'd never find a use for them. ATM working on the last few tech items to get to end game, and haven't needed railways, green or red wire, plus a few other things.