Storing energy as hydrogen (and oxygen) / Cool it down to store energy

[tobsimon]

I don't see any gameplay benefits for these types of energy storage. We have accumulators for short term and (hacky) hot water for other special cases. No real gaps, that need filling. Also, in place of hydrogen, there is other, more conventional stuff, like gas preassure, or kinetic energy.

However, I very much like the concept of handling dangerous stuff, which may just blow your factory to pieces.

[ssilk]

Hydrogen might become very important for building up the spaceship.

[bobucles]

Factorio is VERY forgiving when it comes to a poorly set up factory. Movement belts wait patiently, factories shut down, and wasted idle energy is nearly non existent. If a factory is set up poorly, the only real harm that happens is the factory doesn't produce well. An energy storage that requires high active upkeep really goes against that.

That being said, I DO think high tech structures should be volatile. I don't think they should be destroyed through player incompetence though. It is better to have the enemy attack it, and have the structure multiply damage against your base by exploding. This would encourage a more spread out base design which competes against compact efficiency. Good volatile structures would include the substation, accumulators, filled oil tanks, stuff like that.

(hacky) hot water for other special cases

Nah it's not hacky. It's clever. Players found a way to make a mechanic work when it doesn't normally exist. That's pretty cool. A permanent solution IMO is to let players set a percentage level for their accumulators (10-20% is a good threshold when solar takes over, but your mileage may vary). When energy goes below this threshold the steam turns on, when it goes above the steam power turns off. The "hack" setup emulates this behavior when the power reaches 0 anyway.

[Cordylus]

Hydrogen might become very important for building up the spaceship.

I don't know, because in 0.12 won't be hydrogen. Instead of this will be unknown "rocket fuel".
(info from Crowdin)

[Flextt]

I love the idea of new energy concepts and heat integration (process engineer/verfahrenstechniker here), but I think the cooling of Hydrogen is rather "unelegant" (cant find better wording). Water energy content is calculated by Q = m*cp*dT. For hydrogen, its energy content would have to be calculated in reverse to work.

Keep the turbine, make it a staple in a few recipes (numerous applications around oil processing), remove heat exchanger / super-cooler.

Maybe we will see the rise of refrigerating macines in another way.

[ssilk]

I love the idea of new energy concepts and heat integration (process engineer/verfahrenstechniker here), but I think the cooling of Hydrogen is rather "unelegant" (cant find better wording). Water energy content is calculated by Q = m*cp*dT. For hydrogen, its energy content would have to be calculated in reverse to work.

Keep the turbine, make it a staple in a few recipes (numerous applications around oil processing), remove heat exchanger / super-cooler.

Maybe we will see the rise of refrigerating macines in another way.

I'm sure we have some suggestions about creating hydrogen or other types of energy storing.
"Someone" should make a draft of them.

[Takezu]

The energy increase of the hydrogen via cooling is based on the fact that the volume never changes. If i cool water (down to 4^C not under!!! [this is important yes]) but where to hold the Volume all the time my "mass" of Water must increase. Same For Hydrogen, in which case the potential energy also increases, since it is after all the fuel for an exotherm reaction with oxygen. This storage isn't based on thermodynamics, it's rather based on densty. Which in simple terms means more mass per Volume = more fuel or potential energy stored.
The heat exchanging and afterwards cooling to cryotempratures to store the potential energy is a neat concept that shouldn't be scrapped

H² btw is also a good rocket fuel with high exhaust velocity.

[Flextt]

The energy increase of the hydrogen via cooling is based on the fact that the volume never changes. If i cool water (down to 4^C not under!!! [this is important yes]) but where to hold the Volume all the time my "mass" of Water must increase. Same For Hydrogen, in which case the potential energy also increases, since it is after all the fuel for an exotherm reaction with oxygen. This storage isn't based on thermodynamics, it's rather based on densty. Which in simple terms means more mass per Volume = more fuel or potential energy stored.
The heat exchanging and afterwards cooling to cryotempratures to store the potential energy is a neat concept that shouldn't be scrapped

H² btw is also a good rocket fuel with high exhaust velocity.

I know that. The problem is: How would you implement the feature of cooling hydrogen without deviating from previous concepts? As ssilk said, Factorio doesnt know pressure except to calculate a liquids flow direction. I love the idea, but there are a whole bunch of other energy carriers and options for Hydrogen that do not break with the already implemented concept for Steam.(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrogen_storage)

A solution would be to create a phase-change. Let a fluid reach a certain temperature, at which it performs a phase change. This phase change also influences its fuel value or whatever value you want. This makes flow calculation fundamentally more difficult however, since factorio tries to balance piping systems and it would suddenly have to balance two liquids in one piping

[Takezu]

Where does it break? It would roughly be the same with other names.
The game doesn't care aubout water heat, for the game counts more or less how much energy ithe water has absorbed.
We see that as Tempreature, but the information is more ore less only the stored energy.
The only thing that would change would be a small addition in form of times -1 in the end to reflect a negativ tempreature.
it would be a bit of a sharade yes but it would work.

[Flextt]

Where does it break? It would roughly be the same with other names.
The game doesn't care aubout water heat, for the game counts more or less how much energy ithe water has absorbed.
We see that as Tempreature, but the information is more ore less only the stored energy.
The only thing that would change would be a small addition in form of times -1 in the end to reflect a negativ tempreature.
it would be a bit of a sharade yes but it would work.

Yeah, I consulted the wiki. Energy = dT * watt/degree for (hot) liquids, so the watt/degree factor would have to be negative for cold hydrogen to produce work.