Quality artillery is broken

[CyberCider]

It’s the only entity in the entire game that is given the same effect by both its quality and an infinite research, so they multiply. And the result is seriously OP. It’s not hard at all to get an artillery range larger than your entire revealed map out of just one turret. Half the fun of artillery is supplying artillery outposts far away on your perimeter, or even outside of it. In Space Age all you need is one turret in the center of the map, and you’re set for life. It’s a real gameplay downgrade, imo.

So, my proposed solution to this is to give the artillery turret a different quality effect, and leave range to tech only. Besides, artillery range is already easier to research due to Space Age buildings and quality allowing for much greater production capabilities. That alone can buffs artillery quite a lot.

My ideal candidate for the new effect would be shell splash area. Doesn’t directly overlap with any infinite tech (which would either produce an OP effect or make the infinite tech useless), and still provides a useful bonus. It would allow artillery to both work faster and consume less shells. I am little concerned about the feasibility of implementing this, but who knows, maybe it’s not too bad.

[eugenekay]

I agree, but I think the Balance is easier to obtain: Nerf the Base Artillery turret range down from 224/560 (14X the next Highest Railgun Turret at 40) down to something more reasonable to begin with, maybe only 64/160 like a Radar. This makes the numbers all a lot more reasonable, until the higher levels of Infinite research.

[SirSmuggler]

I dissagrea.

I think this is hugley dependet on playstyle. I play on rail world map settings and my permiters are quit far away and with many (don't recall exactly) levels of artilery range I am still no where near being able to reach my permiiter from the center of my base (atleast not in auto mode).

[Kyralessa]

I agree, but I think the Balance is easier to obtain: Nerf the Base Artillery turret range down from 224/560 (14X the next Highest Railgun Turret at 40) down to something more reasonable to begin with, maybe only 64/160 like a Radar. This makes the numbers all a lot more reasonable, until the higher levels of Infinite research.

Not everybody wants to put in the effort to get a legendary artillery turret. This would nerf the turret for everyone.

The idea behind quality should be to make quality items extra good, not to make non-quality items practically unusable and quality items tolerable.

[computeraddict]

Infinite research and legendary quality is exactly where I expect things to be incredibly overpowered. What's the problem with investment into vertical scaling leading to vertical scaling?

[eugenekay]

I agree, but I think the Balance is easier to obtain: Nerf the Base Artillery turret range down from 224/560 (14X the next Highest Railgun Turret at 40) down to something more reasonable to begin with, maybe only 64/160 like a Radar. This makes the numbers all a lot more reasonable, until the higher levels of Infinite research.

Not everybody wants to put in the effort to get a legendary artillery turret. This would nerf the turret for everyone.

The idea behind quality should be to make quality items extra good, not to make non-quality items practically unusable and quality items tolerable.

This change would be gated/Balanced for the Quality mods and/or Space Age (where you explore less due to resource needs, so Maps are smallr) being enabled, presumably.

Even a miniscule 64 Tiles of starter automatic firing is plenty to keep the Spawners to the edge of Radar visibility - and it only goes up from there. This seems far more "Balanced" than having a single Artillery Turret span the entire Map.

[CyberCider]

I dissagrea.

I think this is hugley dependet on playstyle. I play on rail world map settings and my permiters are quit far away and with many (don't recall exactly) levels of artilery range I am still no where near being able to reach my permiiter from the center of my base (atleast not in auto mode).

Railworld isn’t a playstyle, it’s a settings modification. And the game should always be balanced around the default settings.

[CyberCider]

Infinite research and legendary quality is exactly where I expect things to be incredibly overpowered. What's the problem with investment into vertical scaling leading to vertical scaling?

Quality should only give things bigger numbers, it shouldn’t affect the way you use them. At least, not in a way that makes them easier to use/reduces their complexity. A quality assembling machine doesn’t simplify the ingredients of the recipe, and a quality inserter doesn’t have a longer reach. You still use them in the same way, you just need less of them to achieve a certain goal (or can achieve a greater goal with the same amount of them).
This definition should on paper also apply to artillery turrets, as you could space them out further along your perimeter if each covered a greater range. But with infinite research added into the mix, it’s simply a matter of the numbers spiraling way out of control and producing an undesirable result. Instead of artillery simply being better at what it does, it instead gets to change its position in your base so that it’s easily within reach of your primary logistics.

[computeraddict]

Quality should only give things bigger numbers, it shouldn’t affect the way you use them. At least, not in a way that makes them easier to use/reduces their complexity. A quality assembling machine doesn’t simplify the ingredients of the recipe, and a quality inserter doesn’t have a longer reach. You still use them in the same way, you just need less of them to achieve a certain goal (or can achieve a greater goal with the same amount of them).
This definition should on paper also apply to artillery turrets, as you could space them out further along your perimeter if each covered a greater range. But with infinite research added into the mix, it’s simply a matter of the numbers spiraling way out of control and producing an undesirable result. Instead of artillery simply being better at what it does, it instead gets to change its position in your base so that it’s easily within reach of your primary logistics.

It doesn't fundamentally change how you use it. You still need all of the other perimeter defenses, you just don't need to haul shells as far.

What I think you and others in this thread are balking at is the quadratic nature of the coverage area increase compared to the linear benefits of all other quality and infinite research (except for gun turret damage, which is also quadratic growth). It's a similar reason to why Path of Exile eventually got tired of area of effect % radius stacking and replaced the mechanic with area of effect %, where it was the area affected by the stat instead of the radius.

The big difference between PoE and Factorio, though, is that the enemies in Factorio are supposed to be a solvable side problem whereas solving enemies is the whole point of PoE. Which is why I think it's fine if Factorio has something that absolutely trivializes defense after sufficient investment.

[Tertius]

Since I don't use cheats or mods to start out right from the beginning with legendary items, I start my artillery installations with normal quality. I'm building supply outposts, I use an semi-portable artillery outpost to clear for factory and mining use, and everything is almost the same as with Factorio 1.1. The nests and worms are stronger, they currently need 2 hits instead of only 1, but this doesn't require stronger artillery. The way as it is currently, normal artillery in the given game stages of Nauvis is perfectly fine and neither overpowered nor weak. It's just the final solution for biters, and after it you don't need to care about it any more.

Should I ever get so far to have quality artillery (artillery would definitely not be the first thing to manufacture with quality, normal is already strong enough for everything), I'm fine with replacing 10 turrets by just one or whatever the ratio is. It played its role, now I rule over the biters.

To solve the issue from the OP, I have a simple proposal. Don't nerf normal artillery. Instead, nerf quality artillery. If there is anything to nerf at all.

[CyberCider]

It doesn't fundamentally change how you use it. You still need all of the other perimeter defenses, you just don't need to haul shells as far.

What I think you and others in this thread are balking at is the quadratic nature of the coverage area increase compared to the linear benefits of all other quality and infinite research (except for gun turret damage, which is also quadratic growth). It's a similar reason to why Path of Exile eventually got tired of area of effect % radius stacking and replaced the mechanic with area of effect %, where it was the area affected by the stat instead of the radius.

The big difference between PoE and Factorio, though, is that the enemies in Factorio are supposed to be a solvable side problem whereas solving enemies is the whole point of PoE. Which is why I think it's fine if Factorio has something that absolutely trivializes defense after sufficient investment.

I completely agree that enemies should eventually cease to be a threat, because this isn’t a game primarily about fightning bugs. That’s what artillery exists to accomplish in the first place.

But this should be accomplished by turning them from a combat problem into a logistical problem. Instead of running around and fighting, you simply have your factory manufacture and deliver “enemy defeat”. You automate it.

Which is why I see that “just” in your second sentence as a key issue. Hauling shells around is a logistical problem that you have to deal with in exchange for not having to fight. It’s a tradeoff, one already in your favor by default, but it’s a tradeoff no less. And it in my opinion it has to stay that way.

But when you mentioned perimeter defenses, it gave me an idea for a good comparison to describe what bothers me about this whole stacking artillery range issue. Imagine if turrets had an “ammo grab range”. They could instantaneously grab ammo from chests as long as they were in this range, no logistics needed. Now imagine if this range could be extended to reach all the way from the perimeter to the center of your base. That would certainly present a fundamental change, right? Well, that’s what this multiplicative artillery buff feels like it accomplishes.

To solve the issue from the OP, I have a simple proposal. Don't nerf normal artillery. Instead, nerf quality artillery. If there is anything to nerf at all.

Completely agreed. I’m afraid I’m not on board with that other guy who suggests base artillery to be nerfed in order to even out quality artillery, even if he does agree with me. That’s something quality should simply never do. But I also hope that there is no need for a direct nerf here, just a rework. Quality artillery can stay strong, the only real issue with it is the fact that it acts as a “multiplier” for the power of the artillery range infinite tech. Only these two combined cause a problem. But the tech simply has to continue to exist, so the quality element should be the one to change.

[J-H]

Hey, thanks! I had not thought of qualitying my artillery. I am enjoying the ~+30% range on my Rare arty. It also lets me scout a lot more of the map.

Definitely like it the way it is.

[h.q.droid]

Thanks for the tip too! I made a few legendary artillery trains and completely wiped out biters and pentapods after the 1M-cost range upgrade!

[Rubypoker]

What it comes down to is that the multiplier is used on the radius.
If one wants to avoid absurd ranges one would have to use the multiplier on the volume instead.

Here is a comparison on how ranges would look like if the multiplier was applied to volume:
224 -> 224
246.4 -> 231
268.8 -> 238
291.2 -> 252
336 -> 272

[h.q.droid]

After building a larger base, now I'm the opinion that legendary artillery is too good early on but too weak later. The starting range is too high for its cost but it has logarithmic growth so eventually a megabase's pollution cloud would still out-range it. Especially on Gleba where there is no way to reduce pollution.

If possible, it should be better to make quality affect range growth rate instead. Starting logarithmic for normal and ending as linear for legendary.

[mmmPI]

Half the fun of artillery is supplying artillery outposts far away on your perimeter, or even outside of it.

How does that work exactly ? Because to my knowledge, you can't have an outpost outside your perimeter, the biters would eventually severe the rail connexion if it's not covered by some defense. This seemingly hasn't changed with Space age, although you can now use elevated rails, it still makes no sense to me to think of a base late game with isolated artilery outpost, so i don't see your point here.

Overall -1 for the proposed change, artillery wasn't good enough pre-space age that even some "experienced player" didn't use them in death world but prefered using swarm of spidertrons which is not an automated defense mechanism, so i think the balance was really good on this one, artillery deserve to be very strong as it's the only way to avoid worms nesting in range of your defense, there's no others turrets that can do that. It's not broken that late game automated defense gives you peace of mind.

Especially on Gleba where there is no way to reduce pollution.

There is also no creature that can outrange teslas, roockets or lasers turrets, so overall it's not necessary to use artillery on Gleba, unlike Nauvis where no matter how large you try to make your required encompassing perimeter, the biters will eventually nest a worm that can shoot at your defense witout retaliation. ( or severe your rail connexion).

[eugenekay]

How does that work exactly ? Because to my knowledge, you can't have an outpost outside your perimeter, the biters would eventually severe the rail connexion if it's not covered by some defense. This seemingly hasn't changed with Space age, although you can now use elevated rails, it still makes no sense to me to think of a base late game with isolated artilery outpost, so i don't see your point here.

Mining Outposts which send their finished products directly to Space have no need for a Rail/Power/Signal connection to any other part of the Surface. Refined Uranium products (Magazines & Atomic Bombs) are a good example, since they do not need external Inputs like Biter Eggs (Bioflux) that would necessitate a Landing Pad / Logistics connection.

In the Base Game you can absolutely make each "Research Base" independent, since there is no interplanetary Logistics at all. When playing with Ribbonworld style maps I leapfrog from one set of resource patches to the next, carrying only the base Machinery necessary to setup the next mini-factory using a Spidertron & Bots. Once it is up-and-running the Spider is refilled, and the process repeats. Old areas of the map are left to be overrun by Biters once a Resource patch goes dry. There is no need to Defend land tiles that are not contributing towards Science!

[mmmPI]

How does that work exactly ? Because to my knowledge, you can't have an outpost outside your perimeter, the biters would eventually severe the rail connexion if it's not covered by some defense. This seemingly hasn't changed with Space age, although you can now use elevated rails, it still makes no sense to me to think of a base late game with isolated artilery outpost, so i don't see your point here.

Mining Outposts which send their finished products directly to Space have no need for a Rail/Power/Signal connection to any other part of the Surface. Refined Uranium products (Magazines & Atomic Bombs) are a good example, since they do not need external Inputs like Biter Eggs (Bioflux) that would necessitate a Landing Pad / Logistics connection.

In the Base Game you can absolutely make each "Research Base" independent, since there is no interplanetary Logistics at all. When playing with Ribbonworld style maps I leapfrog from one set of resource patches to the next, carrying only the base Machinery necessary to setup the next mini-factory using a Spidertron & Bots. Once it is up-and-running the Spider is refilled, and the process repeats. Old areas of the map are left to be overrun by Biters once a Resource patch goes dry. There is no need to Defend land tiles that are not contributing towards Science!

That doesn't work for me, OP stated that half the fun was "supplying the artillery shells to far away outpost" , you described an isolated outpost that has no connexion to the main base, it wouldn't be possible to also ship arti shell in the situation you describe.

In the base game if you play ribbon world ? that's not base game to me sorry. In train world that's easier to achieve since biters don't expand, but then you don't need artillery either though, since they don"t expand, so there is no point into shipping artilery shell to isolated outpost.

[h.q.droid]

There is also no creature that can outrange teslas, roockets or lasers turrets, so overall it's not necessary to use artillery on Gleba, unlike Nauvis where no matter how large you try to make your required encompassing perimeter, the biters will eventually nest a worm that can shoot at your defense witout retaliation. ( or severe your rail connexion).

I remember biggest strafers out-ranging legendary Tesla. Rockets have enough range but they fly so slowly that strafers tend to get a few shots off before dying. The only rapair-less defense is legendary railgun.

I had my perimeter surrounded by legendary spidertrons armed to the teeth before I had enough with the red warnings and switching to artillery. It's also why I suggested disabling warning for shield-only damage.

[h.q.droid]

How does that work exactly ? Because to my knowledge, you can't have an outpost outside your perimeter, the biters would eventually severe the rail connexion if it's not covered by some defense. This seemingly hasn't changed with Space age, although you can now use elevated rails, it still makes no sense to me to think of a base late game with isolated artilery outpost, so i don't see your point here.

Overall -1 for the proposed change, artillery wasn't good enough pre-space age that even some "experienced player" didn't use them in death world but prefered using swarm of spidertrons which is not an automated defense mechanism, so i think the balance was really good on this one, artillery deserve to be very strong as it's the only way to avoid worms nesting in range of your defense, there's no others turrets that can do that. It's not broken that late game automated defense gives you peace of mind.

Well, artillery outposts do become viable when artillery covers half the distance or if you put down enough of them to guard the railroad / belt. It's a necessity when Gleba pollution cloud (polynomial scaling) eventually out-ranges legendary artillery (logarithmic scaling). I'd say it's an argument for buffing the range and not nerfing it, though.