Remove/nerf stack size bonus from the basic yellow inserter

[Mendel]

I think the basic yellow inserter now with stack size bonuses have become a little too good. They are too energy efficient compared to the "better" inserters. They do enough in too many situations in my opinion compared to the very low energy usage. So I thought maybe remove or reduce the stack size bonus of the inserter to give us a bit of a more puzzle for late game with regards to what inserter makes sense in any given situation.

[golfmiketango]

I think the basic yellow inserter now with stack size bonuses have become a little too good. They are too energy efficient compared to the "better" inserters. They do enough in too many situations in my opinion compared to the very low energy usage. So I thought maybe remove or reduce the stack size bonus of the inserter to give us a bit of a more puzzle for late game with regards to what inserter makes sense in any given situation.

I think this is a pretty good idea. It makes sense that the early game inserters would not benefit from stack size bonuses; and, as a side effect it would finally provide a means of solving the precision-logistics problem which has come to dominate the active topics in the forums of late, while providing a measurable, and significant throughput cost.

Edit: Also, I kind of object to the idea that late-game equipment should be less efficient. I'd argue it should cost much more to build it, but much less to operate it, so that as you progress, your power to automate increases rather than decreases.

[MeduSalem]

I also think that there's not enough "difference" between the various inserters as of now, or at least they are out of balance...

... but I think the problem is that a lot of the various inserters don't feel like they are really necessary in the first place and are rather there because the devs didn't think about a better, more general solution on how to handle inserters.

As I have mentioned in the "Stack and Filtered Long Hand inserters"-thread I actually think that the regular yellow Inserter among some others have become quite useless. As of now I do most things with Burner Inserters, (Stack) Filter Inserters and Long-Handed Inserters.

In my opinion it would be better if there were only 3 Inserters in the first place:

• Burner Inserter
• Short-handed Inserter
• Long-handed Inserter

And Speed/Stacksize/Filter/Smart stuff would become research upgrades instead with their effects being applied globally once they are researched.

At least it would reduce the item convulution that has taken hold with the Inserters.

and, as a side effect it would finally provide a means of solving the precision-logistics problem which has come to dominate the active topics in the forums of late

It seems like configurable stack size bonus is finally coming with 0.15... so that's probably solved.

[orzelek]

There is also energy usage and drain of inserters.
It might be small but when using efficiency modules inserter power drain can get actually pretty significant and then using inserters that are good enough for the job at hand can be helpful.

[MeduSalem]

There is also energy usage and drain of inserters.
It might be small but when using efficiency modules inserter power drain can get actually pretty significant and then using inserters that are good enough for the job at hand can be helpful.

Of all concerns I have about Inserters I would consider energy usage the least problematic. I mean we have thousands of Laser Turrets... next to them the Inserters don't even make up 1% of the total energy usage of the factory.

May be different with Boiler/Steam Engines, but there I generally use Burner Inserters anyways to overcome the power death spiral that might happen with slowed electric inserters.

[Mendel]

In my opinion it would be better if there were only 3 Inserters in the first place:

• Burner Inserter
• Short-handed Inserter
• Long-handed Inserter

And Speed/Stacksize/Filter/Smart stuff would become research upgrades instead with their effects being applied globally once they are researched.

Maybe... but... I want to have filter inserters in special cases but I do not want to set filters to all my inserters after researching filter stuff.

Maybe filter inserter could make regular fast inserter obsolete if it worked a bit differently. set no filter and it works just like fast inserter... but if you set filter then it works like filter inserter works now.

I also would not want all my inserters to pick things up as quickly as possible and also not to use as much energy as faster inserters... I know, in the end the energy usage is not so high anyways but... well... I like to optimize autism

[MeduSalem]

Maybe... but... I want to have filter inserters in special cases but I do not want to set filters to all my inserters after researching filter stuff.

Maybe filter inserter could make regular fast inserter obsolete if it worked a bit differently. set no filter and it works just like fast inserter... but if you set filter then it works like filter inserter works now.

That's exactly how I imagine that it could work...

Just placing the Inserter would make it act like Fast Inserter.

If you want to act it like filter inserter you would have to pick filters in the inserter menu anyways or active that it should take filter signals from the Circuit Network (with no filter signal = don't pick anything).

[Deadly-Bagel]

Edit: Also, I kind of object to the idea that late-game equipment should be less efficient. I'd argue it should cost much more to build it, but much less to operate it, so that as you progress, your power to automate increases rather than decreases.

It is more efficient generally. I don't have the figures to hand but while a Fast Inserter has a higher energy consumption than an Inserter it finishes each rotation much faster, so the net consumption actually ends up being lower. This isn't necessarily true for inserters that only run very rarely, because the idle drain is higher too but IMO it's not worth carrying around another type of inserter for these fringe cases just to save a few joules.

I think Fast Inserters are maybe available a little too early. Bob's Mods delay their research significantly but make a stack size bonus available instead, this means you get much more use out of them and they feel more like a step of progression rather than just crafting complexity.

[Yoyobuae]

It is more efficient generally. I don't have the figures to hand but while a Fast Inserter has a higher energy consumption than an Inserter it finishes each rotation much faster, so the net consumption actually ends up being lower.

Unluckily I think that's not the case. In my testing at least, the yellow inserter is the most efficient per item moved, long-handed a very close second and fast inserter the worst of the three.

[Deadly-Bagel]

Ah, it looks like I'm running off old information, it was probably changed in 0.13 with the restructuring of inserters.

Fast Inserter now consumes 46kW (previously 32), regular Inserter is only 13kW. A Fast Inserter operates at about 2.75x the speed so the break point is ~36kW. It used to be more efficient, now it's not =(

[Mendel]

in many cases the regular inserter is just waiting for the assembler to do its thing before feeding it more stuff. So then the peak energy consumption of fast inserter is basically 3 times that of the regular inserter. Fast inserter isnt any faster at waiting. And the stack size bonus adds to the situations where fast inserter isn´t needed.

[Deadly-Bagel]

That's not how it works, while waiting they only consume 400W, Fast Inserters use 500W. The difference there is negligible. Yes, while moving Fast Inserters do consume a LOT more energy however they move for almost 1/3 of the duration.

Say both move one item. A regular Inserter consumes 13kW for 1.191 seconds = 15.483kJ. A Fast Inserter consumes 46kW for 0.417 seconds = 19.182kJ. So actually it only uses ~25% more power, including when idle.