4-way intersections: Throughput and deadlocks [image heavy]

[aaargha]

Finally finished my "No Gods" thing, a pro tip is to not use it when disabling stations (or at all - for sanity), I actually had to make an override to disable the instant stop stations, the path changing they caused made it too deadlock prone.

There shouldn't be a deadlock on the outer square. It's not a big square roundabout. trains can only go straight using that outer lanes.

Also i made an OCD friendly version of the same design. That would be great if you add this one too.

Added as "Almost squareabout OCD". The possible deadlock looks like so (same a previous version), 4 trains right -> straight:

Deadlock

ASQ_deadlock.png (973.11 KiB) Viewed 8738 times

The "I don't know what to call this - Mk. 1"

This is somewhat of a roundabout while somewhat not. Trains can only go straight and right, but can turn around after the intersection, so a right turn can either be straight, then right or right, then straight. I have no idea if this will deadlock or how well it will do.

Added as "No left" with some signalling changes and made symmetrical. It can deadlock if the outer rings become saturated with trains, this needs a lot of trains to happen though.

I really like Tallinu's multicross design, but I run a 4-track 3-8-3 (14 car) rail network, and his blueprints for this train length are only available in 2-track form... I built a 4-lane RHD multicross scaled up to 14 car buffers, available here: https://factorioprints.com/view/-KzrTRj_P9IqOK9K8ryQ

I added this link to the existing entry as an alternative version.

[Jap2.0]

Okay, thanks! I'll probably try to make an improved version eventually.

[vanatteveldt]

I'm looking for a compact 4 to 2 lane intersection with good throughput. I have a 4 (i.e. 2+2) lane main line that branches off to 2 lane secondary lines.

I could take a 4 lane intersection and merge/split the 2 lanes to one after the junction, presumably with 1 train buffer to prevent the merging from affection the junction too badly. But I can also imagine that you can create a more compact or efficient design with only 2 lines out to the sides?

In terms of intersections, I guess the most compact+efficient 4 lane designs are "traditional" at 70 tpm (requires a lane changer before, although not a full one since the two lanes on each side are effectively a single lane due to the merge) or "christmas" at around 55 tpm, correct? Any better suggestions?

(Note: I'm using LCC trains so they should get even better throughput, but I'm not sure whether that would increase or decrease the gap between both designs)

[vanatteveldt]

In case anyone is interested, here is a blueprint string for 4-lane Traditional (LHD). I've not tested it in practice so it might contain signalling problems, but I think it should be OK.

image

blueprint

Code: Select all

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

[Divaya]

Here's a 6 lane version of my traditional intersection.


After implementing my 4 lane tradtional intersection in my base, I noted the following issues:

• Trying to design small lane changers is challenging
• Building lane changers everywhere is annoying
• In my save, lane changers caused trains to take really silly routes in efforts to avoid other trains (e.g. 'swerving' and cutting off trains in traffic)

I realized that lane changers isn't what I wanted my intersection to be about, so I ended up modifying it to allow trains to switch lanes while in the intersection. I've taken that and designed a new 6 lane intersection to accompany the lonely one on the list right now.

Rules for this intersection:

• All 3 lanes can go straight through.
• Left lane and Right lane can switch to middle lane before entering intersection (e.g. something is blocking Let lane, but train wants to go stmraight)
• Left lane can turn left into any of the 3 lanes.
• Middle lane has option to switch to left/right lane.
• Right lane can turn right into any of the 3 lanes.

At nearly 1,000 trails and 152 presignals, this intersection was a lotta fun to design.

Code: Select all

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

[aaargha]

Neat, finally some company in the 6-lane category That is a pretty interesting design, it seems pretty safe but it might be possible to deadlock it if you use just the right train length, I'll have to look closer.

There may be some delay in the testing as I'm currently working on improving the test rig (again, should improve performance and might even get rid of the dependency on creative mode for running it), updating/improving my mods, and trying to break 0.16

[hansjoachim]

Hei aarrgha!
I Love your test bench and all
I wanted to report a bug

[15.40] Trains doesn't disappear at the train deletion stop.Like every ten thousand trains or so this happens.
If I delete the train it is back to normal
:edit after I posted this I got a save where it happend three times

[aaargha]

Thanks for the heads up, I've had that happen some time as well. As far as I can tell the issue is that the train simply travels too fast, it may simply jump form the signal past the station in a single tick if unlucky. I think just moving the signal/train stop so that they're a bit farther apart should resolve this issue.

Either way it should no longer be an issue for the improved test bench I'm building for 0.16 as I'm no longer using that kind of setup for the deletion stops. The new setup is mostly done but there is still some work left to remove dependencies on some mods that have yet to release 0.16 versions, at the moment I've just applied band-aids until they stop crashing

The new setup, largely helped by optimizations in 0.16, also seems to offer a pretty nice performance increase. The 8-lane multi-cross ran at about 90 UPS for me in 0.15 IIRC, it runs at about 130 in the new setup.

Hopefully I should be done this weekend.

[hansjoachim]

Great news! I can't wait=)
btw there is a temporary realse of creative mode, so they are close to a full release of creative mode. The temporary version is named "creative mode (Fix for 0.16)"

[aaargha]

I'm using that one but as it counts as another mod all the entities I was using from creative mode got deleted when loading the save. What I've done is rebuild the setup so that it does not need creative mode to work any more.

I'd still recommend using creative mode to build/place intersections but part of the speed-up when testing came from removing creative mode, for the few features of it that I'm using it really uses a lot of processing power.

[hansjoachim]

After about 200 in game hours I have a feature complete RHD 8 lane 4-way intersection with about 470 trains per min with set 1 and 2

It is not about lowest performance hit or resources spent. It is all about throughput. There are no chain signals at all, every rail crossing is done with combinator logic. Would you test it?

A video on reddit showing the intersection: https://www.reddit.com/r/factorio/comme ... ane_4_way/?
utm_source=reddit-android

Features (in random order):
- Intersections with time control, input and output sensors to regulate lights
- Deadlock prevention
- Any train length can pass
- Support multiple train lengths (You can adjust for different train length by setting different black and white numbers) (needs more testing, to prevent deadlock)
- No impact on compression if no train crosses each other
- Balanced high throughput lane merger
- A bare minimum of unnecessary waiting time. (would be interesting to make it closer to zero, though that wouldn't increase throughput)
Blueprint:
https://pastebin.com/bEtNrHmk
Blueprint preview:
https://my.mixtape.moe/noorap.png

[aaargha]

I, uhh...

...

Hmm...

...

I'll try it for sure, we'll see how I include it in the results

[Jap2.0]

When exacly does latency start becoming an issue?

[vanatteveldt]

... There are no chain signals at all, every rail crossing is done with combinator logic. ...

This one is a couple km above my head. However, would it be possible to design a simple 4-way intersection with timed signals and some room before/after the intersection to make sure crossing always happens at max speed? That might be a simple way to increase throuhput on 'normal' designs, no?

[hansjoachim]

... There are no chain signals at all, every rail crossing is done with combinator logic. ...

This one is a couple km above my head. However, would it be possible to design a simple 4-way intersection with timed signals and some room before/after the intersection to make sure crossing always happens at max speed? That might be a simple way to increase throuhput on 'normal' designs, no?

I am not sure i follow. But in OpenTTD you can loop a train and keep it at a high speed untill the intersection is clear, you cant do that in factorio i think.
You can also only turn signals red and not green, just so that you know

[Divaya]

oh my

The timed intersection lights are super cool. Is it a fixed timer, or responsive logic based on who is waiting?

[hansjoachim]

oh my

The timed intersection lights are super cool. Is it a fixed timer, or responsive logic based on who is waiting?

It has a responive logic based on who is waiting/incomming

[aaargha]

God dang it hans, why is it not symmetrical!? Why are the entrances/exits not properly aligned for all sides? AAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!

Erhem. Anyway, just had to get that out of my system as I'm trying to get this thing in the tester

[hansjoachim]

God dang it hans, why is it not symmetrical!? Why are the entrances/exits not properly aligned for all sides? AAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!

Erhem. Anyway, just had to get that out of my system as I'm trying to get this thing in the tester

I know, I fucked up=(
edit: 0.16 tester? Because two numbers needs to be adjusted for nuclear fuel=)
edit the concrete on the map is misaligned =(

[aaargha]

No worries, it was easily fixed by some cut-and-paste. Also, I'm sticking with rocket fuel. Unless there are some changes made that force me to redo all the tests I've already done I'll probably avoid changing things like that.

Regarding your intersection: I won't add it to the "regular" list as it is so dependant on the circuitry (especially the merge, I messed one up and it lowered throughput by 50), an optimization that can be applied to a lot of designs. Only having it for some on the list seems like it would make the comparisons less useful (this is also why many if the multi-cross variants are also not on the list). I'm not sure if I'll look into making a separate ranking for circuit heavy intersections or just show a few designs as examples, we'll see. But man, all those overkill signals really kills pathfinder/train performance.

In other news, the updated throughput tested is available in the OP. I think I lost some of the performance gains by making the tester larger but it's nicer to work with now. It is hopefully fine, but please let me know if there are any issues with it.