Friday Facts #399 - Trash to Treasure

[Saphira123456]

It's mostly space-saving and resource-saving actually. Due to the tiny, depleting nature of ore patches, you don't get all that much from one patch so you have to maximize the materials you get by placing as few miners and assemblers as possible. Plus, you drastically cut down on the amount of space you use up per mini-factory. This isn't Satisfactory, where resource patches are infinite and you can afford to build multiple lines like that. (Hell, I even play Satisfactory the same way, and it ends up being faster.)

Uhm are you running minimal Ore generation settings with your Maps or something? Because with Default Settings even your starter ore patches are enough to run a quite big factory for a while before they deplete.

You need less than 1 Million Iron Ore (and far less of the other Stuff) to launch the first Rockets, so pretty much any Ore Patch that is not the Default Starter Patch will be more than enough to supply you until you beat the Game.

Remember Ore Patches get bigger the further away from the Center you are, to the point where you will often see Millions in a single patch within your Radars exploration Range at the very beginning even. Add the Mining Productivity Research to that and you can mine for even longer, and once you get Quality Mining Drills in 2.0 you deplete even LESS Ores!

Resource scarcity and Space scarcity practically do not exist in Default Factorio.

The only reason Space is scarce is because you decided to not leave your main plot of Land, or you walled yourself into a too small space, or you built everything too close to each other so you cant fit anything inbetween, all of which are problems caused by the Player themselves and not the Environment.

And Ores only FEEL scarce because they are not infinite at first glance, but once you reach the 10 million sized ore patches you will need a Megabase to deplete those. And those 10M+ sized patches are not even that far away from the Center. Sure they are guaranteed to be Biter infested even at the largest starting area size, but at that point you already have good enough weapons to get rid of the few Nests, so you just need to get over the anxiety of not knowing how well the weapons work against Biters.

I recommend using a Tank with Explosive Shells for clearing Nests up to 85% Evolution, that is available with Blue and Military Science quite early on, and you did say yourself that you do use the Car, so you should have enough driving experience to not run into Cliffs while circling the Biter Bases.

First off, I don't always use the car. So I still run into power poles, trees, rocks, cliffs, etcetera while driving around.

Second, you're asking me to replace boredom (waiting) with annoyance (repetitive and unnecessary reconstruction.) No thanks!

Third, I am most definitely not using minimum ore settings, or even the default, as I find myself having to increase the ore patch numbers, size and richness to their absolute max in order to stay put in one place for any significant length of time.

Finally, I usually build as I need to. Do you see any spots to put extra buildings in this screenshot, without ripping out existing ones?

https://steamuserimages-a.akamaihd.net/ ... rbox=false

[GregoriusT]

Second, you're asking me to replace boredom (waiting) with annoyance (repetitive and unnecessary reconstruction.) No thanks!

Third, I am most definitely not using minimum ore settings, or even the default, as I find myself having to increase the ore patch numbers, size and richness to their absolute max in order to stay put in one place for any significant length of time.

Finally, I usually build as I need to. Do you see any spots to put extra buildings in this screenshot, without ripping out existing ones?

https://steamuserimages-a.akamaihd.net/ ... rbox=false

Yes about half the screenshot is free real estate, also you could just produce the Engines on site with that unclaimed Iron from the Iron Patch on the left, so you dont need to ship it via Train.

Also the way you have built your Mine is contradictory to your actual goal of staying in one place, not only did you not put a 2 tile gap between Miners to maximize their staying time, you also will have to rebuild Miners all the time when the segment of the patches runs out, which is why you have set the richness of the ore patches to the maximum.

Normally people put 24 Miners along a yellow Belt (assuming mining prod 1 research) and run it into 48 Stone Furnaces to smelt the Ore, resulting in a filled Yellow Belt of Plates, which will last for many real life weeks or even months at your settings playing 24/7 nonstop.

The way you have built these setups actually gives you more rebuilding work as opposed to less, since you dont go big the first time, you will have to the second time, or wait an eternity for no reason. There is no repetition in building it big the first time, because if you build big right away, you get shit done much easier and faster than wasting time on microfactories.

[Saphira123456]

Second, you're asking me to replace boredom (waiting) with annoyance (repetitive and unnecessary reconstruction.) No thanks!

Third, I am most definitely not using minimum ore settings, or even the default, as I find myself having to increase the ore patch numbers, size and richness to their absolute max in order to stay put in one place for any significant length of time.

Finally, I usually build as I need to. Do you see any spots to put extra buildings in this screenshot, without ripping out existing ones?

https://steamuserimages-a.akamaihd.net/ ... rbox=false

Yes about half the screenshot is free real estate, also you could just produce the Engines on site with that unclaimed Iron from the Iron Patch on the left, so you dont need to ship it via Train.

Also the way you have built your Mine is contradictory to your actual goal of staying in one place, not only did you not put a 2 tile gap between Miners to maximize their staying time, you also will have to rebuild Miners all the time when the segment of the patches runs out, which is why you have set the richness of the ore patches to the maximum.

Normally people put 24 Miners along a yellow Belt (assuming mining prod 1 research) and run it into 48 Stone Furnaces to smelt the Ore, resulting in a filled Yellow Belt of Plates, which will last for many real life weeks or even months at your settings playing 24/7 nonstop.

The way you have built these setups actually gives you more rebuilding work as opposed to less, since you dont go big the first time, you will have to the second time, or wait an eternity for no reason. There is no repetition in building it big the first time, because if you build big right away, you get shit done much easier and faster than wasting time on microfactories.

OK, so it seems I need to completely restart this save. Nuts!

I always start out with microfactories in order to have ready materials while I'm at the "craft everything from inventory" stage.

[Koub]

"Super-fast" at one or two science packs per thirty minutes.

Man you had this conversation in a trillion threads already, does it need to be here as well?

[Koub] Pretty much this. I had the awkward sensation of dejà-vu, I'm pretty sure I've read this exact same argument a couple months ago. And, surprise, it's not on topic, not by any stretch of imagination. So feel free to finish this in private, or stop arguing, both work for me, thank you

That was from the moderator-me. A final note from the "me-me".
Let me be of some additional help :
@Saphira : you'll never convince anyone ever that your very specific way of playing is the way, and the devs should make the game a whole lot different just for you. Just enjoy it, and that's fine
@The others trying to prove Saphira wrong : don't ever try bothering, convincing will never happen (I wouldn't try convincing a vegan they're wrong, unrelated to the fact they are actually right or wrong, same logic).

[Saphira123456]

"Super-fast" at one or two science packs per thirty minutes.

Man you had this conversation in a trillion threads already, does it need to be here as well?

[Koub] Pretty much this. I had the awkward sensation of dejà-vu, I'm pretty sure I've read this exact same argument a couple months ago. And, surprise, it's not on topic, not by any stretch of imagination. So feel free to finish this in private, or stop arguing, both work for me, thank you

That was from the moderator-me. A final note from the "me-me".
Let me be of some additional help :
@Saphira : you'll never convince anyone ever that your very specific way of playing is the way, and the devs should make the game a whole lot different just for you. Just enjoy it, and that's fine
@The others trying to prove Saphira wrong : don't ever try bothering, convincing will never happen (I wouldn't try convincing a vegan they're wrong, unrelated to the fact they are actually right or wrong, same logic).

Thank you Koub, and I want to thank Gregorious too as he actually managed to convince me to change my playstyle AND prove you wrong - one CAN try and convince someone to change to a better play style, it might just work so long as they're nice and understanding about it!

It's a game, not a lifestyle like veganism.

[GregoriusT]

Ah there goes the moderator intervention as I predicted would eventually happen. XD

I was just curious how exactly the argument even came to be and what playstyle one would have to have to argue using those specific points. ^^

[Saphira123456]

Ah there goes the moderator intervention as I predicted would eventually happen. XD

I was just curious how exactly the argument even came to be and what playstyle one would have to have to argue using those specific points. ^^

Well, now you know! Thank you for helping me change!

I would absolutely love to continue getting more tips from you, but as Koub said this is off-topic! Let's take this to DMs, if you don't mind!

[Anima117]

- You have to build defensive coverage everywhere you build - check, although this time it seem you don't get a planet-wide solution, but HAVE to do it on every point. Can't wait to have additional entiities on mining outposts which have to be delivered and stamped down in a grid.
- You need to ship in a resource which is usually abundant and is needed in huge amounts - check. "But you don't have to" - yeah, trains will be burning what then?
- No "landfill" - you now HAVE to build spaghetti for the third time now, because that's obviously such a fun mechanic somehow, being cramped. First the cliffs, then the lava fields, now the oil fields. I don't know, maybe it's me, but the novelty of cliffs wears off 30 minutes after starting a vanilla game in 1.0. Yeah, you can wall of biters every now and then for free, but otherwise they are literally undermine what made factorio great for me in the first place, when it all began - that you can quickly scale to ludicrous amounts, without being artificially limited by performance. Is this also a performance thing, like in other games, finally catching up? We should not build wide anymore?
- Recycling - I somewhat warmed up to quality, whatever, I could deal with that. But now it's the most unfun mechanic from SE shoehorned in again. Was quality not enough with recycling, is the space platform not enough?
It is not fun to have 98237546 byproducts, and have to have a convoluted way to delete them from the world is just not fun, and not interesting gameplay. This is the same as robots needing maintenance, assemblers needing lubrication, and other tedium-inducing mods.

That is an interesting point of view that I didn't consider, but maybe if I explain how I see it, it can make you change your mind to some extent? From my point of view, I see these planets as a challenge, or a puzzle to be solved, and not so much as an indrance. If we take Nauvis itself, the challenge is just to not run out of ressources, and plan accordingly with your pollution and deal with the pesky bitters, which are not really a problem once you get oil anyway or if you just destroy their nests over time. The main driving force of Nauvis is that, since ressources are limited, and an enemy threat exists, you have an incentive to expand further. On my first game in normal difficulty, I pre-amptively destroyed bitter nests and so never had any trouble with them attacking my base... So much so I barely had any defenses up. They are barely a challenge as is, and copy-pasting the challenge of Nauvis would just be doing the same thing again with harsher conditions.

If we look at the two planets that have been revelead, other than provide an infinite ressource that you can export back to Nauvis, they also pose a different challenge. As you said, Vulcanus' main thing is that you don't have a lot of space to build. The other challenge is that you don't control what ressource you get from the foundry. You need to sort iron, copper and stones, and need a way to empty the output which might get clogged up, which unlike a regular factory, is unreliable. It is a different way of build your factory, kinda like a challenge run. (And who knows if they didn't leave some information hidden and there is more to this planet than just what was mentioned).

Fulgora follows kinda the same idea. Reduced space, but with another sorting issue, since you get semi-random items, you need to recycle them, and sort them accordingly to essentially start a new with fresh ingredients, and then build your factory from this. Again it is another way of building your factory. The storm system is just here to prevent a too quick expansion, otherwise you would just setupt on the biggest plateau possible and call it a day. Again to me it is more of a challenging new way of building your factory, more than just "oh I gotta build another factory again".

As for the ressource you say you would need to import in mass, I am assuming you mean coal. But you don't need coal. The second most likely item you recieve from the scrap piles is solid fuel, with a 7% chance (right behind gears at 12%). Solid fuel can be burned in the trains, or used to make rocket fuel with your endless supply of oil. And maybe even, you could just recycle the solid fuel into coal and some oil (Unless that recipe wouldn't be able to be recycled but I kinda doubt it). It is a different building philosophy entirely. I am pretty sure they intend for each planet to be beatable without importing any ressources. As such, the recycling machine will probably take steel, gears and advanced circuits or something like that to craft, which you get from the scrap pile, then by recycling you get the ressources you need to start automating everything again, because afterall, what if your factory on Nauvis dies out while you went on your space expedition because it ran out of ressources? Or bitters evolved in your absence and destroyed parts of your factory? Can't have you getting softlocked and unable to go back to space.

The only big issue I can see with both planets is the clogging of your factory, which again requires you to empty it somewhere, but again it is a puzzle to solve more than just an issue to me.

[Koub]

Thank you Koub, and I want to thank Gregorious too as he actually managed to convince me to change my playstyle AND prove you wrong - one CAN try and convince someone to change to a better play style, it might just work so long as they're nice and understanding about it!

It's a game, not a lifestyle like veganism.

One of those rare occasions where I'm glad I was wrong. Good for all, the argument is settled, now back te topic

[aka13]

To shipping in water for oil cracking - yeah, I was totally wrong, and got quickly corrected. I just thought that editing a post will be unfair to previous replies, and decided to leave it be as it is. Solid fuel is certainly more than enough to run trains, especially seeing how abundant it is coming from recycling. I just overlooked it, since on Nauvis I never bother to use it, since rocket fuel is better in every way and is accessible as easy as the solid fuel.

Regarding the clogging, that is certainly as discussed by previous posters, a gameplay preference. Judging from the FFF only, I would propably way more open to it, as I was when I played SE. I recently gave up on a run, because I was really getting annoyed by the Kovarex-enrichment-style-loops and recipes requiring a recycler and or voiding. Any advanced manufacturing you touch, you get an enrichment loop + scrap recycling. This was for me personally the part I enjoyed the least, so my perception is skewed in that regard.

And so far, while of course different, and probably even more polished than SE (SE is incredibly well polished, I loved it, I think it took 400(!) hours for me to give up) the core loop is just giving me the same vibes so far.
But as also pointed out by previous posters, the environment and possibly enemies will maybe spice the gameplay loop up so much, that it will not be a centerpiece anymore.

It's sort of a worst-case-scenario-extrapolation based on what has been shown so far, which is propably off by a big margin to how the end product feels like.
I do agree, that "oh I gotta build another factory again" is certainly worse than having a new approach to it. I am just not convinced yet, that the recycler loop is going to be a fun alternative.

[alxWarlord]

How much more do we have to wait? I must buy it!
Will there be a pre-release? A beta? A test version?

[FuryoftheStars]

I just thought that editing a post will be unfair to previous replies, and decided to leave it be as it is.

You could, if you wanted, edit it to simply strike out the existing text and can optionally put an "Edit:" by it. This, I feel, effectively "cancels" the text, while still being fair to anyone who had replied to/quoted you.

[XT-248]

This was pointed out quite a few pages back and by at least one or two other people besides:

The last time I checked, you can not recycle solid fuel (liquid) or stone (already in its rawest form and can not be processed further).

[...]

None of the visible belts in this footage have a stone outlet through inserters or splitters for the main loop. The secondary row of the recycler on the right area doesn't count, as none of them grabbed or consumed stone. The bottom splitter does not have an outlet and is used to merge incoming items into the main loop.

So, actually, you can, and it is visible in that video. Watch the third inserter from the bottom, middle row. It grabs and inserts some stone ore at one point.

Hmm. Somehow, I missed those posts.

It sounds like filter inserters will be my to-go for controlling what goes into the recycler if everything is indeed 'recycle-able' once Space Age is released.

Even if I assume that the recycler indeed does consume stone, there is a good chance that I will go with a different approach because having more raw materials is always 'better' than sinking them.

This is, of course, your choice, and I completely respect that. But it doesn't mean that the balance should be changed so that voiding never has to be done.


Edit: And here was someone else's response where they also mention seeing ice being trashed, which further supports (at least) solid fuel being trashable (if needed/desired):

The last time I checked, you can not recycle solid fuel (liquid) or stone (already in its rawest form and can not be processed further).
...
None of the visible belts in this footage have a stone outlet through inserters or splitters for the main loop. The secondary row of the recycler on the right area doesn't count, as none of them grabbed or consumed stone. The bottom splitter does not have an outlet and is used to merge incoming items into the main loop.

According to the gif you posted, stone can be trashed in that recycler. Look closer at the second row, third inserter from the bottom. I didn't see solid fuel being trashed, but I did see ice being thrown to that recycler, so solid fuel can be, too, I suppose.

Nothing as dramatic as you suggested; I am advocating for a tiny reduction of stone generated as a byproduct from scrap while preserving the 'scrap-as-the-main-puzzle' approach in the blog.

If it turns out that stone is a crucial ingredient, as the potential percentage implies, then it becomes less of a barrier or noob trap as a mineable deposit in smaller amounts.


Most people were intimated by the thorny issue of balancing the three different fluids from basic oil processing in pre-0.17 patches, which prevented many from reaching or advancing past blue science packs (sulfur and plastic bars). I may have a fresh account on the Factorio forum; I have been playing Factorio since it first appeared on the Steam store (brought in March 2016).

I would not be surprised if WUBE considered adding official support for voiding fluid (chemical plant flare towers are a common sight in the IRL petroleum industry) at one point while trying different approaches to help people get used to fluid handling.


I see recyclers being blocked by overflow as a similar issue that may require a minor tweaking on a smaller scale than the modern basic oil processing change.

[Svip]

It sounds like filter inserters will be my to-go for controlling what goes into the recycler if everything is indeed 'recycle-able' once Space Age is released.

Ah, but haven't you heard? The filter inserter has been removed. All inserters are now filter inserters, including the burner and long inserter.

[FuryoftheStars]

It sounds like filter inserters will be my to-go for controlling what goes into the recycler if everything is indeed 'recycle-able' once Space Age is released.

You don't necessarily need filter inserters. You can use priority and filtered splitters together to split off all of one output type (ie, solid fuel) while still retaining the ability to avoid backups by allowing overflow to continue down the line which can eventually be fed back to the recyclers.

Most people were intimated by the thorny issue of balancing the three different fluids from basic oil processing in pre-0.17 patches, which prevented many from reaching or advancing past blue science packs (sulfur and plastic bars).

Sure, but by now (and by that I mean by the time one reaches Fulgora, even if it's their first choice) players should have at least some experience with it. Which reminds me! Players will have had some experience with this by the time they reach this planet by merit of the space travel! Remember, asteroids are random and infinite, not to mention they may give you materials early on that you can't/don't want to make use of yet, so you'll need to void some materials off the side of your platform. Same concept.

I see recyclers being blocked by overflow as a similar issue that may require a minor tweaking on a smaller scale than the modern basic oil processing change.

The only way for this to happen is if you're attempting to horde and are refusing to void anything. A simple priority splitter feeding the non-priority belt back to the recyclers would prevent this.

There does come a point where you need to stop holding your player's hands.

[adam_bise]

The level of awesomeness in this expansion is really taking off! Can't wait!

[floven1]

I saw processing units being recycled, I hurt

[musbur]

Man, you are the 5th poster which lacks reading comprehension or is just baiting, I don't know.
And I even reply each time - cliffs are fun, trees are fun, being limited in a game is obviously fun, otherwise there is no progression.

What is not fun, is that the cliffs-lavapit-oilpit are the same limitation. Imagine if you had to craft a new assembler type for every planet, but the only difference would be the color scheme of the assembler, and otherwise it would be mechanically the same. To me, it would not be fun.

Now I understand. Personally I don't mind -- I like to build around this stuff simply because it breaks the monotony of "rasterized" base layouts. I find it visually more pleasing. Of course I haven'r explored any other planets yet.

[Hognose9]

Here's my unrealistic guess:

Every planet has their limitations, Nauvis is ridden with biters, Vulcanus has lava pits and some hints at similarly unhappy natives. But who or what is on Fulgora to stop you?


The precursor aliens fought a war, and they were losing. The enemy had disabled their anti-spacecraft capabilities and had begun landing en masse for an invasion. The aliens, lets just call them Fulgorians, knew something had to change, or else they would be overrun by their hated enemy. The Fulgorians had technology and resources, but lacked manpower. One experiment was of particular interest, it had previously dismissed as a waste of time and manpower, but the military was desperate.

Their enemies had these disgusting biological beasts, known today as biters. They were not man-made, rather a product of the clearly inferior ecosystem run by their enemies. These things could live off the land, and they would attack Fulgora's incursions into enemy planets, but that's nothing a few plasma blasts couldn't stop. The Fulgorians copied this idea, improving upon it. Using their plentiful resources and advanced AI, they made a mechanical version. Like ants, these mechanical biters would take chunks out of enemy structures and bring it back to the Fulgorian Empire. As the war situation deteriorated, drastic measured were taken. The mecha-biters were updated to live off the land, making colonies and manufacturing copies of themselves.

This proved to be extremely effective, as the enemy's flamethrowers and lasers could barely damage the mechanical biters. The war continued on for years, but one fateful day it all changed. The enemy were fed up, causing a civil war on their home planet. Overnight, their military capabilities collapsed, so they evacuated their forces from Fulgora.

Every Fulgorian was celebrating and cheering, they had finally won! All they had to do was disable the mecha-biters. The scientists issued a recall of all mecha-biters, causing thousands of early models to come home and be shut down. But something was off, there had to be millions more out in the wild. Most of the mecha-biters were created by other mecha-biters from captured enemy materials. Only a few of these returned home.

The scientists captured a wild model, and upon analysis found the recall code had been removed. They had evolved. The Fulgorian Empire tried to remove the wild mecha-biters by force, but encountered stiff resistance. The mecha biters had been designed to evolve to new threats, and they had just turned on their creators; the Fulgorians were threats. Wild mecha-biters swarmed the undefended mechatronics lab, causing a battle between man-made and wild mecha-biters. The millions of mecha-biters quickly overwhelmed the man-made ones, killing all scientists they found.

With the scientists dead, nobody knew how to shut down these mecha-biters, sparking a war between Fulgorians and their mecha-biters. Unprepared, the Fulgorians were annihilated, with their materials used to make more mecha-biters. Every last kilogram of pure material was used by mecha-biters to make more of themselves. After entirely removing any semblance of a threat, they climbed into their caves and hibernated. For centuries, the only time they emerged was to consume stray meteorites that landed.


Until one fateful day, they sensed a disturbance. They emerged to find a fiery haze; the engineer's rocket was landing.

For now, they are rusty and barely working, but this new threat will galvanize them.


The idea:

The mecha-biters do not care about impure materials, that's why they left all this scrap lying around. But this scrap is just as useless to you as it is to them, and you'd like to recycle it. By nightfall, they hide from lightning in caves they have excavated. During the day, they scout around in search of pure material. They will steal iron, copper and other basic resources off belts, taking it home like ants. If you do not have any, they will take chunks out of your buildings. If they cannot get any, they will learn and come back until they get their metals.
You could import large amounts of raw resources to feed them, but their numbers will slowly grow until you can't afford to feed them anymore.

You may choose to go on the offensive, but their caves are reinforced. Flamethrowers cannot flush them out, as they are heat resistant and do not require air. Explosions can seal the caves, but they will just dig a new way out. But maybe if you use a large amount of explosives, you could collapse the cave permanently.

The mecha-biters are not all bad though, they will happily dine on materials you do not need, and they even pose a research opportunity. You could reverse engineer them and make your own larger versions. They would require a multitude of advanced materials, trading flight for carrying capacity, range, speed and combat ability. Perhaps their heat resistance and ability to cross rough terrain will prove useful on Vulcanus.

[aka13]

Man, you are the 5th poster which lacks reading comprehension or is just baiting, I don't know.
And I even reply each time - cliffs are fun, trees are fun, being limited in a game is obviously fun, otherwise there is no progression.

What is not fun, is that the cliffs-lavapit-oilpit are the same limitation. Imagine if you had to craft a new assembler type for every planet, but the only difference would be the color scheme of the assembler, and otherwise it would be mechanically the same. To me, it would not be fun.

Now I understand. Personally I don't mind -- I like to build around this stuff simply because it breaks the monotony of "rasterized" base layouts. I find it visually more pleasing. Of course I haven'r explored any other planets yet.

Yeah, agreed. I remember having a lot of fun with https://factoryidle.com/, I think it came after I played factorio, not sure if there is any inspiration in whatever direction.
Funnily enough, it has recycler mechanics . Give it a try, maybe you'll like it as well.