Legendary Yumako & Jelly Nut Seeds should grow legendary plants

[mmmPI]

That is already the case currently.

A sligthly higher return on quality fruits from quality seed would not be a positive i think. It wouldn't simplify the system players have to make to create quality spoilables, they would still have to deal with all the different levels, just in sligthly more favorable ratios. On the other, they will have a much harder time managing their seeds, and activating the proper agricultural tower at the proper moment, as you don't have enough slots in the the tower for all the quality levels, and you risk stockpiling "quality seed" and not finding a use for them, while requiring only "basic" material

Not sure how you are thinking that seed management would become significantly harder. This wouldn't necessitate any kind of tower management.

I'm not thinking it would become significantly harder, it would be mostly the same for the most part, it's part of why i think your particular proposal doesn't work, but it also seem you have missed some parts of why it adds some extra things to do :

Or perhaps that separate towers be designated for each quality being planted, with seeds being sorted and sent to the correct tower.

Yeah otherwise how do you know which trees is legendary and which tree is a normal tree if you do not control properly the agricultural tower ?

That's why i said you need to then activate the agricultural tower at the proper moment. You don't have to call it tower management if you don't like the words lol, it's just that you have to manage which tower is active and when ..........

But in more detail, this system would allow for a degree of "quality momentum" to be built up, without eliminating the need to deal with a percentage of crap-quality stuff.

"quality momentum" isn't a real thing, it's just words between comas, what will happen is that you will run out of basic quality seed if they can give higer quality fruits, that's already what happens when you process yumako or jellynut with quality module, you end up with extra quality seed that you have to plant, otherwise you don't have enough seed to continue planting seed.

But with your proposal, it would break much more frequently for players who do not get it, their quality seed would give quality fruits in towers, andif they process their yumako or jellynut with quality module they will run out of basic fruits and seed .

Here is yet another topic similar btw in suggestion not balancing: viewtopic.php?t=121647

[Rancara]

Yeah otherwise how do you know which trees is legendary and which tree is a normal tree if you do not control properly the agricultural tower ?

You don't need to know. Why are you even thinking that you would?

Picture this:
******* First Harvest *******
- I pull in a crop of common quality Jellynuts and run them through my processors with quality modules. For simplicity, we'll pretend that the whole farm gets harvested all at once, processed all at once, and replanted all at once. It was a full crop, with every available farm space growing a tree.
- I get back about 150% of the seeds needed to replant the whole farm with every space filled.
--- About 9 to 10% of these seeds are now uncommon quality.
--- About 1% are rares.
- I now sort these seeds, sending back the highest quality seeds first.
--- 1% of 150% is 1.5% of 100%. So 1.5% of the seeds I send to replant are rares.
--- 10% of 150% is 15% of 100%. So 15% of what I send back is uncommon.
--- This leaves 83.5% of my replanting stock that I fill with common seeds. I dump the remaining seeds into a heater.
- I don't give a rat's bum where the seeds get planted, or which trees are which quality. Different towers are going to plant mixes of whatever different seeds come to them. They are all going to get harvested and sent back en-masse anyway. All I care is that the farm gets filled all the way, with a full crop, with as many seeds of as high a quality as possible.
******* Second Harvest *******
- Anyway, that's what happens. They all get harvested and sent back. And here, the math gets a bit more tricky.
--- 1.5% of the trees harvested were rares. Each tree gives 50 nuts, of which a certain percentage (on average, it's randomized) are rare, like the tree. Other percentages of its nuts (on average) are uncommon and common. Let's say the chances for rare are 50/30/20. So, this means that of the 1.5% of my nuts that were harvested from rare trees, about 50% are rare nuts, 30% are uncommon, and 20% are common. Multiply each of these by 1.5% (by 0.015), and we see that this accounts for 0.75%, 0.45%, and 0.3% of the entire harvest.
--- For uncommon trees, let's assume they provide 60/40 chances for uncommon and common fruit, respectively. 15% of our harvest came from these trees. Using similar math, we can estimate that from the nuts harvested from uncommon trees, we will get 9% of the entire harvest as uncommons, and 6% as commons.
--- Lastly, all 83.5% of the harvest that came from common trees is common nuts.
--- Add together the percentages from each type of tree, and we see that our harvest is 0.75% rare, 9.45% uncommon, and 89.8% common nuts.
- I now dump these onto my sushi belt for processors running all 3 recipe qualities to grab from. I don't even need to sort stuff yet. The inserters will automatically grab what their recipe uses.
- Once again, I get back about 150% of the seeds I need to completely replant the farm, with small percentages of each quality upgraded to higher qualities. This is what I'm referring to as "quality momentum". I've gained a little bit. This quote:

"quality momentum" isn't a real thing, it's just words between comas(quotation marks, you mean)

is wrong. It's not just words between quote marks. It's an actual effect that you would notice, and can see based on this math.

Anyway. From here, the cycle continues, gaining more of that quality momentum with each cycle.

But with your proposal, it would break much more frequently for players who do not get it, their quality seed would give quality fruits in towers, andif they process their yumako or jellynut with quality module they will run out of basic fruits and seed .

First of all, they will not run out of basic fruit/seed. That is impossible with this system. At least some percentage of the harvest will always come back randomized back down to common.

And even if they would run out, that would be a problem... why exactly? As you can see from the example scenario above, their goal is to maintain as high a quality of a crop as possible. If they get to a point where they no longer have room to plant the poor-quality seeds (by building up that much "quality momentum"), then good for them. That's the player's entire goal with the quality system. To cycle up quality as much as possible.

If they want to maintain a factory's worth of crap quality stuff for some reason, in addition to their quality raising efforts, then they can plant a separate farm that runs into processors that don't use quality modules.

Besides, all that stuff is what balance testing is for. Those percentage chances for each quality of tree would have to be adjusted to make sure that the afore-mentioned quality momentum starts giving diminishing returns, and then caps out, at the correct points.

Here is yet another topic similar btw in suggestion not balancing: viewtopic.php?t=121647

Thanks. I'll check that out.

[mmmPI]

You don't need to know. Why are you even thinking that you would?

Yeah why ? just harvest all your legendary seed and let the fruits spoil because you only needed basic quality.

Your whole point is ridiculous, you've switched to arguing that you wouldn't need to control which tower is active in case they have seeds of different quality, that makes even less sense that the first proposition.

It's an actual effect that you would notice, and can see based on this math.

1 nonsense argument + 1 wrong justification = 2 good reasons to ignore your proposition, i call it "balacing momentum" it's a real effect, as you can see from the math.

[Rancara]

Yeah why ? just harvest all your legendary seed and let the fruits spoil because you only needed basic quality.

Why am I even... *sigh* OK, I'll explain this.

You don't need basic quality. ~Duh~. If you are using the quality system to try and get higher quality fruits in the first place, that means that what you need is high quality. Not basic quality, or you wouldn't be trying for the high stuff.

And for the second (or third?) time, you won't run out of basic quality with what I proposed. Even if every last seed you plant is legendary, a percentage of what you harvest would always come back randomized back down to each of the lower levels.

And for the third (or fourth?) time, you will not EVER wind up with every last seed you plant being legendary. Because the harvest quality chances would be balanced such that your increasing percentage of quality returns (the building quality momentum) starts slowing down, and then eventually caps out.

Your whole point is ridiculous, you've switched to arguing that you wouldn't need to control which tower is active in case they have seeds of different quality, that makes even less sense that the first proposition.

What do you even mean "the first proposition". I'm still talking about the same one. I haven't switched anything. Everything I'm describing is exactly how I envisioned it from the start.

Also, you are just calling it "ridiculous" without giving a single reason why it would be. Even after I just laid out a step-by-step description and simulation of what would happen, and why, demonstrating how it would work without causing any of the nonsensical "problems" you keep coming up with.

At this point, I would start assuming that we are talking past each other, with you misunderstanding my proposition for something other than what I'm trying to describe.
I would think that, except that, as I said, I just outlined a detailed step-by-step description of the proposed system, how it would work, and what would happen with it. Yet you are still talking past me with these supposed "problems" that make absolutely no sense in relation to what I'm proposing. Almost as if you were talking about a completely different game. Except that you aren't.

So I can only assume that
A) You are just being dumb.
B) You have really weird ways of doing things in this game.
C) You have really weird non-standard goals in this game for what you want your factories to do.
D) You didn't actually read my step by step outline, or bother to comprehend it.

In the first case (A). Your opinion on this matter isn't worth listening to. You should shut up and let the thinking people talk.
In cases B and C, Your opinion here is also moot. Because you're basically not playing the game. Just doing goofy stuff with it. You should shut up and let the people talk who actually want to play it, and want to balance it for actual play.
And in case D, again, your opinion is moot. Because you're doing the same thing as those idiots on various forums who try to reply to topics or posts without even reading them. You aren't even arguing against my proposition, because you didn't even bother to know what it is. So you shouldn't be trying to talk about it.

It's an actual effect that you would notice, and can see based on this math.

1 nonsense argument + 1 wrong justification = 2 good reasons to ignore your proposition, i call it "balacing momentum" it's a real effect, as you can see from the math.

Once again. No argument here from you. Just unsupported claims of "it's nonsense" and "it's wrong". You sound like the little kid covering his ears and shouting "YOU'RE WRONG! YOU'RE WRONG! YOU'RE WRONG! YOU'RE WRONG! YOU'RE WRONG!..." to drown out anything the other kid is saying.

You claimed that my descriptive term "quality momentum" was "just words", and "not a real thing".
I responded by showing you, in detail, what the real thing was that I had coined the term to represent.
You responded with (paraphrase) "Nonsense! Wrong! You're dumb! I don't have to listen to you!".

So clearly, you aren't worth listening to either.

EDIT: You say "balancing momentum". It's not a matter of balancing. It's a matter of building up to a cap. I point you once again to the beginning of this post, to repeat what is said there for the fourth (fifth?) time. Please pay attention to it this time before trying to reply or argue further. If something is still unclear, I'll try to explain further if you ask.

[mmmPI]

And in case D, again, your opinion is moot. Because you're doing the same thing as those idiots on various forums who try to reply to topics or posts without even reading them. You aren't even arguing against my proposition, because you didn't even bother to know what it is. So you shouldn't be trying to talk about it.

Look it's fairly easy to see that you created this account only to argue in bad faith over different topic on this forum, it's funny you're gaslightnig me about it, i linked several topics where other people explain what you seemingly can't process, so i'm going to make it dead simple :

Even if some random troll says their system is perfect in their imagination, when describing the idealized system, it can happen thay they do describe something that won't work the way they describe.

Also, you are just calling it "ridiculous" without giving a single reason why it would be. Even after I just laid out a step-by-step description and simulation of what would happen, and why, demonstrating how it would work without causing any of the nonsensical "problems" you keep coming up with.

Yeah your demonstration contain blatant mistake and you are ignoring the proper one that's ridiculous. If you had ever tried to play this game, like making quality stuff on Gleba you'd be perfectly aware that your proposition is breaking the game and yielding a system that makes no sense. You will be forced to plant "quality seed" because you processed fruit with modules, and you still need basic quality material, so when planting 100 "normal seed", you'd only get let say 80 in return and 20 of higher quality. This isn't sustainable.

You can call it "quality momentum", in fact, it shows that you will run out of "normal" seed, your proposition is non-sense and your explanations indeed ridiculous. It was explained already, why would keep repeating the same thing when there are as you can see on the different thread, MANY differents BETTER propositions that wouldn't break the game in a way you seem to have trouble to understand due to your inexperience.

[Rancara]

i linked several topics where other people explain what you seemingly can't process

You linked exactly ONE other topic where people discuss what we are (or at least were) discussing in this one.

Here:

Here is yet another topic similar btw in suggestion not balancing: viewtopic.php?t=121647

I said:

Thanks. I'll check that out.

I did.

People in that did NOT say things that would invalidate this idea. It was even proposed as an option. Literally the EXACT SAME THING. Here:

Made a forum account just to post this; Quality Seeds make Quality Tree which have a chance to produce Quality Fruit.
For example uncommon seed would produce an uncommon tree, the uncommon tree when harvested would have a 10% chance for each fruit to be uncommon, if not then it would be common.
Rare tree could do the same with 10% rare and 90% common, or it could be a cascade of probabilities.
IE Legendary tree could go 10% legendary fruit, 10% epic, 10% rare, 10% uncommon, 60% common.
Numbers are of course subject to balancing changes but this would provide a similar logistical challenge to other quality loops with a bit of Gleba flair and prevent you trivially making purely legendary products. It would be cool to have a legendary jellynut vineyard, protected by only the best with decorative concrete patterns surrounding the defensive perimeter.

The only objection to it in the WHOLE THREAD (Yes, I read every word of the whole thread), was this:

I think the idea of it splitting qualities (here's 20 regular, 20 uncommon, 10 rare) is probably not workable because of the output slots of the machine.

A problem that's easily fixed. Add more output slots.

Look it's fairly easy to see that you created this account only to argue in bad faith over different topic on this forum,

Pfft. No. What I first created this account for was to ask if anyone knew of a way to specify order-of-operations in combinators and/or copy-paste individual conditions within a single one. Then later to ask about a way to get Production Modules to auto-reinsert back into crushers after a recipe change from the circuit network ejected them.

Your attitude on the second topic was similarly offensive to how you're behaving here. Instead of being helpful and answering the question with "no, there's not a way" or "yeah, here's how to do that", you basically said "That's dumb of you to try and make a system that needs that. There's no reason you should be wanting that. Suck it up, scrub."

so i'm going to make it dead simple :

Even if some random troll says their system is perfect in their imagination, when describing the idealized system, it can happen thay they do describe something that won't work the way they describe.

Did I claim that this suggestion was perfect? Where did I claim that this suggestion was perfect? Oh, that's right. I didn't. In fact I said I was throwing it out unpolished, and it would need refinement and/or balancing. More than once.

I've only been arguing against your blatant broken-record-repetition pretending that certain game elements have limitations that they don't. Like pretending that you would need to carefully control which towers planted which qualities of seeds and/or when they planted them.

I got news for you buddy, since you are clearly a troll on such subjects. Towers don't need recipes to be set with specific qualities of ingredients. They are like furnaces, where if you drop in 5 purple quality Iron Plates, it will just take them and automatically spit you back out a purple Steel Plate. You drop in a seed of ANY quality, and the tower will simply plant it in the next available open space.

I'm not even going to deign to answer your stupid claims that I haven't actually played the game.

You can call it "quality momentum", in fact, it shows that you will run out of "normal" seed, <more foolish name calling without actually resenting any logical and/or game-based reasoning>

OK then. Time for me to make this really, really, REEEEALY simple for you.

C percent chance of Item A turning into Item B, produces an average of Y(X) = XC, where X it the amount of item A, and Y is the resulting amount of Item B.

If X and C are non-zero. Y will be non-zero.

Period.

If Y is too close to zero, this is fixed in gameplay by increasing the value of X (plant more seeds), or in game design balance by increasing the value of C (increase the probability of A turning into B). Also easily fixed in gameplay by just adding another tower or two to send only basic seeds to, and another set of processors that doesn't use modules. That's 3 things that make your problem not a problem. At least.

You will not run out of B.

If you are worried about running out of more ABasic to plant, because of module use when turning B back into A, then I have even more simplicity for you.

D percent chance of B NOT turning into something other than ABasic (via modules), produces an average of Z(Y) = YD, where Y is the amount of Item B processed, and Z is the resulting amount of ABasic.

Combine this with the previous function, and you get Z(X) = XCD, where X is the amount of ANY quality seed you plant, C is the chance of that seed growing and harvesting into basic fruit, and D is the chance of your modules FAILING to process it back into higher quality seeds.

All of these values are very significantly > 0 in the proposal we are discussing.

Your objection to running out of basic seeds is nothing but bullshit nonsense. We are talking about a proposed HARD LIMIT on the average MINIMUM number of basic seeds that can be gained from EVERY SINGLE HARVEST.

Go actually play the game, troll. And get gud. THEN come back here and talk to me about this. Either that or try explaining yourself better if I'm misunderstanding you.

I'll listen if you present rational objections. Those are nice. They actually help improve ideas. Unlike the crap your verbal spewage has devolved into.

[mmmPI]

Go actually play the game, troll. And get gud. THEN come back here and talk to me about this. Either that or try explaining yourself better if I'm misunderstanding you.
I'll listen if you present rational objections. Those are nice. They actually help improve ideas. Unlike the crap your verbal spewage has devolved into.

I believe you should avoid personnal attacks, and i believe i can't explain myself better, it is on your side that the understanding is limited, and you seem to be doing it on purpose at this point x).

You have repeated the same wrong demonstration again, almost identically, you can do it several more time, it won't make it any more true. I believe you just refuse to consider you can be wrong and will continue to try and provoke people on other topic with ridiculous arguments so i'm going to ignore most of the thing you say.

It's fairly easy to understand that if you start with 100 "normal" seed and you get 80 "normal" seed, and 20 "quality" seed back in the first cycle, you will quickly run out of "normal" seed. I believe only someone who never tried to do quality on Gleba can "not understand" at this point.

The better proposition would be faster seed growth.

The proposition from Rancara being the worst, its going from "insignificant" to "detrimental", wether or not you get "more" quality seed or "less", if you don't get any , then it's insignificant, but the higher proportion of fruits that are made "quality" from "normal" seed, will mean the "higher proportion of quality seed", and thus the faster people will run out of normal seed.

[h.q.droid]

The proposition from Rancara being the worst, its going from "insignificant" to "detrimental", wether or not you get "more" quality seed or "less", if you don't get any , then it's insignificant, but the higher proportion of fruits that are made "quality" from "normal" seed, will mean the "higher proportion of quality seed", and thus the faster people will run out of normal seed.

You're flatly wrong in the running out of normal seed part. Under their suggestion, any rational person would have planted some normal fruits and processed them without quality in isolated farms / logistic networks. And no rational person would ever suggest returning quality stuff in that case.

I do agree with the impractical part. There will be such a messy mixture of quality stuff that it becomes impractical to efficiently plant the desired seeds in a useful way with current in-game mechanisms. Planting the seeds isn't a simple mathematical process of iterative matrix multiplication, it involves quality crushing, selecting the right seeds and planting them. Quality crushing is already impractical since without speed modules the bandwidth is a bit low. And there is no way to check how many slots need planting right now and seed selection needs that. Even if you manually account for that and create a circuit network to sync incrementally, it can still take enough time to move the right seed to the next available slot to make the whole deal unattractive. Not to mention there is no way to force a tower to plant a given seed.

[mmmPI]

The proposition from Rancara being the worst, its going from "insignificant" to "detrimental", wether or not you get "more" quality seed or "less", if you don't get any , then it's insignificant, but the higher proportion of fruits that are made "quality" from "normal" seed, will mean the "higher proportion of quality seed", and thus the faster people will run out of normal seed.

You're flatly wrong in the running out of normal seed part. Under their suggestion, any rational person would have planted some normal fruits and processed them without quality in isolated farms / logistic networks. And no rational person would ever suggest returning quality stuff in that case.

The same person that did the suggestion also explained :

Not sure how you are thinking that seed management would become significantly harder. This wouldn't necessitate any kind of tower management. Only that seeds be sorted before being sent back to the towers such that higher quality seeds receive priority to be planted first. Or perhaps that separate towers be designated for each quality being planted, with seeds being sorted and sent to the correct tower.

So i'm going to say it again, no this makes no sense.

Your previous proposition :

Another idea is to make legendary seeds grow legendary fruits, but make legendary fruits crush into normal seeds. That kinda breaks the current quality assumptions but could be an interesting addition to the quality system.

This one does makes sense. Otherwise, you have the proposition of Rancara, which doesn't, because then you will run out of normal seed if you process yumako or jellynut with quality modules. Overall i believe those suggestions are just demand to make the game easier while not realizing it would break current ways of doing because it wasn't practiced.

( how are you gonna find legendary seed in your proposal ? )

I do agree with the impractical part. There will be such a messy mixture of quality stuff that it becomes impractical to efficiently plant the desired seeds in a useful way with current in-game mechanisms. Planting the seeds isn't a simple mathematical process of iterative matrix multiplication, it involves quality crushing, selecting the right seeds and planting them. Quality crushing is already impractical since without speed modules the bandwidth is a bit low. And there is no way to check how many slots need planting right now and seed selection needs that. Even if you manually account for that and create a circuit network to sync incrementally, it can still take enough time to move the right seed to the next available slot to make the whole deal unattractive. Not to mention there is no way to force a tower to plant a given seed.

That's what i said in my first answer :

A sligthly higher return on quality fruits from quality seed would not be a positive i think. It wouldn't simplify the system players have to make to create quality spoilables, they would still have to deal with all the different levels, just in sligthly more favorable ratios. On the other, they will have a much harder time managing their seeds, and activating the proper agricultural tower at the proper moment, as you don't have enough slots in the the tower for all the quality levels, and you risk stockpiling "quality seed" and not finding a use for them, while requiring only "basic" material

[h.q.droid]

Quality crushing in the current setting doesn't have a high risk running of normal seeds: a biochamber with 4 legendary quality 3s and no speed still produces 112.8% normal seeds. Though without speed it's impractical anyway.

In my proposal, the intended way to get quality seeds is upcycling normal surplus into soil.

Right now quality upcycling is so bad that you need cursed tricks for quality science to make sense. Easier legendary bioflux can make legendary chemical / military science practical with biosulfur.

[mmmPI]

Quality crushing in the current setting doesn't have a high risk running of normal seeds: a biochamber with 4 legendary quality 3s and no speed still produces 112.8% normal seeds. Though without speed it's impractical anyway.

Some players already complained they ran out of seeds even without trying anything with quality because they have their fruits spoils ....

In my proposal, the intended way to get quality seeds is upcycling normal surplus into soil.

That at least constitute a consistent system in my view, but i believe the players that expressed the idea that quality fruit should yield quality fruit won't necessarily realize there is this cursed trick added for them x).

Right now quality upcycling is so bad that you need cursed tricks for quality science to make sense.

That's an opinion not shared by me. You don't need cursed trick for quality science to make sense.It's always there as a sink for higher quality material. But also there's no reason quality science "should always make sense to be automated at large scale" and/or "should be made easier".

If you want legendary chemical science on Gleba you need a large and inefficient setup, that's how the game is, why should it be "easier" ? when you have already easier alternatives ? Why would you make your legendary chemical or miliatry science in Gleba and then complain it's not efficient ? x) that's like picking the slowest method amongst all the method, and suggesting it be made faster, maybe the situation is one where you should just change method instead of asking for the game to comply to what appears to be a whim.

Quality stuff on Gleba are valuable even if it's not science and there's ways to get them that do not require cursed tricks ...

[h.q.droid]

Some players already complained they ran out of seeds even without trying anything with quality because they have their fruits spoils ....

Well I thought it was common sense to crush all fruits you harvest even if you don't need the mash.

That's an opinion not shared by me. You don't need cursed trick for quality science to make sense.It's always there as a sink for higher quality material. But also there's no reason quality science "should always make sense to be automated at large scale" and/or "should be made easier".

If you want legendary chemical science on Gleba you need a large and inefficient setup, that's how the game is, why should it be "easier" ? when you have already easier alternatives ? Why would you make your legendary chemical or miliatry science in Gleba and then complain it's not efficient ? x) that's like picking the slowest method amongst all the method, and suggesting it be made faster, maybe the situation is one where you should just change method instead of asking for the game to comply to what appears to be a whim.

Quality stuff on Gleba are valuable even if it's not science and there's ways to get them that do not require cursed tricks ...

The major argument against quality science being a sink for high quality material is that there's no automated way to transport them, unless made in large scale. Like if you had 300 legendary agricultural science, either you have to manually move them to Nauvis, or waste many other sciences in Gleba labs, or you just let them rot. On top of that, mixed science is a devil to belt due to stack inserters.

Note that I didn't mention "in Gleba" on sulfur / coal, I mean at all. Right now sulfur and coal are the hardest things to get legendary at scale. Asteroid cycling is so UPS-inefficient that I can no longer produce legendary plastics from them when working towards my 1M as-legendary-as-possible eSPM megabase. I'm now mining epic coal from train-crushed cars. I may have to switch to railgun-shot-chests eventually since I'm now bottlenecked at how fast I can crush cars. Biosulfur is just the most UPS-promising and under-utilized mechanism (due to bad end-game yields) that could use a buff from a game design perspective.

For stuff native to Gleba, well you can stock a few legendary chests with current mechanisms. It's just easy legendary bioflux will revitalize the generally bad Gleba recipes and bring some changes to the end game.

[mmmPI]

The major argument against quality science being a sink for high quality material is that there's no automated way to transport them, unless made in large scale. Like if you had 300 legendary agricultural science, either you have to manually move them to Nauvis, or waste many other sciences in Gleba labs, or you just let them rot. On top of that, mixed science is a devil to belt due to stack inserters.

i suggest gameplay help if you need help for this x)